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-> Chinuch, Education & Schooling
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amother
OP
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 Sun, Jun 19 2022, 9:29 am
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DS 17 is asking why he should go to shul and mumble thousands of words he doesn't understand. Why can't he just stay home and thank hashem and ask him for his needs and not go to shul.
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imasinger
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Sun, Jun 19 2022, 9:31 am
What's the back story?
Did he have the opportunity to learn the meaning and importance of davening earlier in life? Is he willing to read or learn more now?
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amother
Banana
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Sun, Jun 19 2022, 9:36 am
Even if he doesn't understand, the power of a minyan is tremendous.
You should maybe get him an art scroll siddur.
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amother
Broom
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Sun, Jun 19 2022, 10:31 am
I love this question! Great kid!
I think a quick answer is that "I didn't know" is never a viable defense. Like you can't claim I didn't know the law, therefore I shouldn't be prosecuted. You can't say I didn't know I had to report my income so why should I sit in jail for tax evasion? Its your responsibility to know the law if you are doing whatever it is that you are doing. So that's a basic common sense principal. And I think you can show him that it applies to a lot of things in life. Driving, doing business, interacting with agencies, and yes, davening as well. You can't say its meaningless and cop out of it. You have to make the effort to understand what's going on. Thats your responsibility as an adult Jewish male (female too but thats besides the point). You don't get to cop out. Thats called growing up. We don't always get to pick and choose what feels good or what is meaningful to us. We sometimes have to work to find the correct way and/or the meaningful way within a framework - whether its a religious framework or a government law framework or even a social framework.
Then, there is the religious answers that describe the power of words, the power of a minyan, and all those lofty ideals.
So there's a lot to talk about with this one! Great, great question! I love thinking kids!
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amother
Fern
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Sun, Jun 19 2022, 10:34 am
Can I ask what city he went to school?
We are just going through the same thing and we can’t understand how the by teach the meaning of davening and the yeshivas don’t
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leah233
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Sun, Jun 19 2022, 10:58 am
He is correct. He should not be mumbling thousands of words that he does not understand. He should use a siddur with a linear translation and try to learn what the words actually mean.
Why do it in shul and not just mumble thanks to Hashem at home?
He is not capable of composing the proper text or determining the proper way to do so. Those who composed the tefilos were.
Nor is your house the most proper venue for tefila. A shul is Hashem's house (so to speak) Nobody would make an event honoring someone of major importance in your house with just your son and the honoree there. No one lobbying a government official would expect him to show up at your house to be lobbied. They would go to his place. etc.
That said if he really resents going to shul, ask your rav, but I would not push a teenager who really does not want to go to shul to always do so.
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NotInNJMommy
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Sun, Jun 19 2022, 11:00 am
He can.
He should understand what are the trade offs of each, and decide what he wants to do.
For a 17 yr old, I do not mandate they go to shul. It’s between them and Hashem at that point.
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amother
OP
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Sun, Jun 19 2022, 11:02 am
| imasinger wrote: | What's the back story?
Did he have the opportunity to learn the meaning and importance of davening earlier in life? Is he willing to read or learn more now? |
He is, but he questions everything. Meaning he won't accept that "davening is powerful". He'll reply, "says who"? "How do we know"? It says so in a sefer written 400 years ago? How does he know?
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amother
OP
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Sun, Jun 19 2022, 11:07 am
| amother [ Fern ] wrote: | Can I ask what city he went to school?
We are just going through the same thing and we can’t understand how the by teach the meaning of davening and the yeshivas don’t |
He went to a very big well know school in New York. We should have pulled him out a long time ago because they are strict and don't entertain these type of questions. He doesn't belong there. Now he's finishing 12th grade and has a million questions and is demanding real answers that can been seen and measured.
Meaning he'll ask to actually show him the practical real life difference between those who daven all year including rosh hashana and yom kippur and those that don't. Is hashem meeting the needs of those that davened more than those that didn't? If not, how can we say davening is powerful?
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DVOM
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Sun, Jun 19 2022, 11:07 am
I've had this conversation with my almost 14 year old. Being a woman, I don't really know what the point of minyan is, really never learned it. I can see the community/social value, but don't really know the religious/spiritual value.
We got my son a learning partner to learn a book on this topic. I don't know if it was what he learned that made the difference or if he saw this was not a power struggle for us, we weren't thrown off or scared my his questions and feelings, but his antipathy to minyan definitely disappeared.
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amother
OP
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Sun, Jun 19 2022, 11:11 am
| leah233 wrote: | He is correct. He should not be mumbling thousands of words that he does not understand. He should use a siddur with a linear translation and try to learn what the words actually mean.
Why do it in shul and not just mumble thanks to Hashem at home?
He is not capable of composing the proper text or determining the proper way to do so. Those who composed the tefilos were.
Nor is your house the most proper venue for tefila. A shul is Hashem's house (so to speak) Nobody would make an event honoring someone of major importance in your house with just your son and the honoree there. No one lobbying a government official would expect him to show up at your house to be lobbied. They would go to his place. etc.
That said if he really resents going to shul, ask your rav, but I would not push a teenager who really does not want to go to shul to always do so. |
I never thought of this. We have a difficult battle ahead. This argument alone won't sway him completely, but it might help. Thank you.
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behappy2
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Sun, Jun 19 2022, 11:11 am
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I would get him a Rav/mentor type of person to help sort this all out.
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amother
Viola
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Sun, Jun 19 2022, 11:11 am
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You must match him up with a rav who has the knowledge and understanding to answer his questions. Boys like this need a personal mentor who they can respect.
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sequoia
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Sun, Jun 19 2022, 11:32 am
Please don’t engage in a power struggle with an almost adult.
At this age, his religious practice is his own business.
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amother
Begonia
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Sun, Jun 19 2022, 11:33 am
| behappy2 wrote: | | I would get him a Rav/mentor type of person to help sort this all out. |
This. You might get some nice answers here. But he is going to need more than a nice answer from you.
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amother
NeonBlue
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Sun, Jun 19 2022, 11:42 am
Power struggles are never a good thing even when your child is five. Having said that, a seventeen year old doesn’t have the mental and emotional stability to be making major life decisions with no guidance.
Are you giving him the car keys without getting him driving lessons? Or sending him deep sea diving without an instructor? I agree with trying to get him a good teacher or mentor. He shouldn’t be saying thousands of words without understanding them. There are so many resources available. Maybe he should say less for now but start by understanding the parts he’s saying.
This reminds me of when a tragedy happened some years ago. A rebbi of a boys hs class asked the Rosh yeshiva if he could skip learning and have the boys say tehillim. He was told yes, for as long as the boys are capable of saying tehillim with kavana. After a while the boys, or anyone, will end up daydreaming and running through the words mindlessly.
Don’t force your son to do something he’s not up to but don’t leave him with no guidance sailing along with no anchor.
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amother
Cherry
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Sun, Jun 19 2022, 11:42 am
Where's he going next year? I would consult a rav you trust, but also think about asking dh to contact right now and discuss with his rebbes next year. If he's not going to a place where that can be a thing, now would be a time to look at that.
Also, I find that boys often don't get talked to about personal tefillos. It doesn't have to be an "or"- it can be an "and." You can have private tefillos in addition to shul, and they have different characters.
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#BestBubby
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Sun, Jun 19 2022, 11:48 am
Good question for a Rov.
I think the answer would be DS should learn the meaning of two teffilos in depth like Shema and
Shemona Esrei.
And only go to shul for less than an hour to say those Teffilos with a Minyan.
And slowly build up from there.
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s1
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Sun, Jun 19 2022, 12:07 pm
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There is a fabulous new siddur by Rabbi Feigenbaum from Toronto that is geared to teens. There are explanations of each tefilla and there is a section of questions and answers at the back. But definitely connect him to a mentor or rov.
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amother
Petunia
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Mon, Jun 20 2022, 2:04 am
There's a wonderful book by Rav Pincus on this subject called "Sheárim B'tefillah" - it has been translated and is sold in English, too.
It clarifies the different forms of prayer - and I found it hugely inspirational.
Really transformed my davening.
I also have a beautiful short piece on tefillah (literally 2 pages)) - very easy reading, that I cn send you if you DM me. (it was published by a charity and sent to donors).
It isnt about minyan, but about the power of talking to Hashem.
If someone cant daven well in a minyan, there's always value to communicating with Hashem in private, though one should be working towards davening in a minyan, of course.
Starting on understanding the words and the power of "talking to Hashem" could be a good place to start if your DS is willing to listen. Making him feel bad about himself wont get you anywhere, so you'll have to tread gently 
And I agree with all posters who say that getting a mentor involved might be a good idea.
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