What do u wear | Imamother

Not_in_my_town

Thu, Jul 28 2022, 6:12 pm

amother [ Mulberry ] wrote:

No where did I mention that it's against halacha.
I said it's inappropriate/unacceptable.

But the question is WHY?

It's not acceptable for two reasons:

1. Because it doesn't look "typical." The majority of the world doesn't walk out in sleepwear, Jewish or non-Jewish.

2. Because of frum rules that impose stingent standards on behavior.

Neither of them should be the ultimate determining factor of a person's behavior, but they do have bearing. For those reasons, I wouldn't wear sleepwear outside, however, it is wrong to look down on someone else who is halachically covered and makes a different decision.

Rubies

Thu, Jul 28 2022, 7:57 pm

Not_in_my_town wrote:

1 - Majority of the world doesn't do it because it's considered inappropriately dressed. Not because it isn't typical. It's not about tznius clearly as much of appropriate dress isn't tznius.

2 - It isn't frum imposed standards as much as tznius by association.

dancingqueen

Thu, Jul 28 2022, 8:23 pm

Rubies wrote:

It’s not considered a big deal for a secular mom to run her kid to the bus in pjs.

Rubies

Thu, Jul 28 2022, 8:27 pm

dancingqueen wrote:

It’s not considered a big deal for a secular mom to run her kid to the bus in pjs.

That's because it isn't a big deal to be inappropriate nowadays.
Secular moms wouldn't want to run into anyone they want to impress while doing that.

Not_in_my_town

Thu, Jul 28 2022, 8:50 pm

dancingqueen wrote:

It’s not considered a big deal for a secular mom to run her kid to the bus in pjs.

Agreed. We even had pajama day in public school as a kid. People would come in fuzzy sleepers and pjs. It's not a typical day-to-day mode of dress, but that just because it doesn't look put together. It's more of a disheveled look.

behappy2

Thu, Jul 28 2022, 8:57 pm

Not_in_my_town wrote:

You can't compare kids to adults.

Rubies

Thu, Jul 28 2022, 9:07 pm

Not_in_my_town wrote:

I highly doubt any parent would show up with pajamas on non-pajama day.

Your example doesn't prove much.

Not_in_my_town

Thu, Jul 28 2022, 9:12 pm

Rubies wrote:

I highly doubt any parent would show up with pajamas on non-pajama day.

Your example doesn't prove much.

Exactly, because it's not a typical mode of day to day dress.

The world expects a bit more professionalism when it comes to life.

And that's fine in the secular world and the frum world. But it doesn't make it not tznuis.

Hello! I went to a chasunah a while ago in which the machateniste looked as if she were wearing lingerie. But because it was in the setting the of a chasunah, and because it came with a hefty price tag it was considered socially acceptable.

The material and design were almost exactly the same as you'd pick up in a better nightgown store.

Therefore, we can not base "appropriate" on our personal tastes of what looks like a nightgown or not. We can't call the design of a nightgown not tznuis. Is normal? Is it common to wear outside? No.
People generally have more self respect than that, but if they don't... no harm done. It's just kind of weird.

We can only determine "acceptable" in terms of halacha. If areas are covered, it is acceptable, ableit odd.

amother

Orchid

Thu, Jul 28 2022, 9:25 pm

Not_in_my_town wrote:

Tzniyus is not only about covering your body. It’s about being a bas melech and presenting yourself in a dignified manner. That means not wearing pajamas in the street, not running in public (unless it’s an appropriate setting for running) not eating while walking in the street, and so on. Some people won’t even drink out of a bottle = only a cup or straw.
You’re implying that it’s all just social pressure and shtuss that keeps people from wearing pajamas outside.

amother

Stone

Thu, Jul 28 2022, 9:28 pm

I have a theory that the world would be a much happier place if everyone wore comfy pajamas instead of uncomfortable clothing.

I see no issue with a woman going outside in a tznius robe over pajamas as long as it isn't transparent or clingy.

Personally, I throw a slinky skirt and hoodie (no bra) over my pajamas and a pre-tied bandana on my head to bring my children out to carpool. We are not morning people and wake up as late as we possibly can to be ready on time. I have one child on a bus, but it goes door to door and we don't have to wait outside. I wake her when I see from the Whatsapp group that the bus is in the neighborhood and she's ready and waiting by the door by the time it gets to our house 30 minutes later. Once my kids are out of the house, I can relax and do my exercises and shower before getting dressed for the day. I prefer not to have to get dressed and then undressed again. I have driven DH to the train and my kids to school if they missed the bus while wearing my PJs with a coat or the above mentioned slinky and hoodie, but only if I don't have to get out of the car at our destination. If the kids are so late that I'd have to go into school to sign them in then I will absolutely get dressed first, as I would if I'm driving morning carpool and not just my family.

Not_in_my_town

Thu, Jul 28 2022, 9:31 pm

So now it's not tznuis to drink out of a bottle? Confused

And you seriously don't get how it's based on social standards?

Can't Believe It

The community decides what is "dignified" and some of those levels of dignity may be based on shtuss. Yup. I stand by that.

In my community, as said, wearing a tichel to the grocery is considered inappropriate. Why?
Because that is what the community has chosen to push.

But I choose to side with Hashem and let actual halacha lead the way.

The Taryag mitzvos and halacha are my guidebook, thank you very much.

amother

Mulberry

Thu, Jul 28 2022, 9:37 pm

Not_in_my_town wrote:

So now it's not tznuis to drink out of a bottle? Confused

And you seriously don't get how it's based on social standards?

Can't Believe It

No one mentioned anything about tzenuis till you brought it up. I didn't say it wasn't tzenuis. Inappropriate doesn't necessarily mean untznius.

Not_in_my_town

Thu, Jul 28 2022, 9:47 pm

So here's the thing: We're Jews. What is appropriate for every step of life is determined by halacha.

Zehu.

That is the foundation of living a Jewish life.

Then we build social standards from there. And certain times that can be fine, and certain times that cannot be fine.

But if someone lives outside of social standards and inside of halacha, they are fine.

You can live inside both, but don't look down on someone who doesn't.

A fully kosher Yid can drink from a bottle. A fully kosher Yid can wear a nightgown that isn't see through or form fitting and covers correctly if she chooses to. Will it be socially off? Yes. But is it an averah? No.

Let it go.

Rubies

Thu, Jul 28 2022, 9:51 pm

Not_in_my_town wrote:

Nah, just because society still has a tiny bit of morals and have still kept up some appropriateness, shockingly.

I see the image posted, so I expect it to become the new version of athleisure shortly. Sleepy couture? Bedchic?

Come back to imamother in 10 years for heated debates on adding chumrahs of not wearing these in vogue items.

I believe things that are inappropriate do fall under the tznius aspect of spirit of the law.

Rubies

Thu, Jul 28 2022, 9:54 pm

Not_in_my_town wrote:

I noticed that you often insert comments to this effect - many of us may believe something to be right or wrong, ethical or not without judging others.
It seems you sometimes mesh these two concepts together. No need to.