What do u wear | Imamother

amother

Offwhite

Thu, Jul 28 2022, 9:56 pm

Not_in_my_town wrote:

Mulberry (DarkGreen? Wink

), I personally wouldn't walk out in a nightgown, but I know of a woman who has an autoimmune disease and is also very heavy; it's hard for her to find decent clothing that doesn't cause her pain. She wears a nightgown all day.

If it covers what it has to, then there is no problem halachically. I wouldn't look down on anyone for going out in a nightgown that isn't formfitted or see-through. (In fact, they can even look kind of like those slinky Shabbos robes...)

You seem to know a lot of interesting people with interesting situations.

Not_in_my_town

Thu, Jul 28 2022, 10:04 pm

Rubies wrote:

I noticed that you often insert comments to this effect - many of us may believe something to be right or wrong, ethical or not without judging others.
It seems you sometimes mesh these two concepts together. No need to.

That's because there is a common issue in the frum world: Meshing together frumkeit with Yiddishkeit. We need to detangle the two.

Let's do a thought experiment:

If two women bought the same material in the same style, and one called it a nightgown and the other called it a chasunah dress, which one is not tznuis?

A tznuis nightgown is a gown. While one person may be uncomfortable wearing it out of doors -- and that's fine and in the more "normal" realm, there are people who might have reasons for wearing it out of doors. As I mentioned, I know of someone with amyloidosis who is slowly dying a tragic death, and she wears a nightgown because it is the only thing that she can tolerate. If she were to walk outdoors in a fully covering nightgown, I would stand up for her, for she is fulfilling the halachos of tznuis. And other people would look down on her for not being "appropriate" according to social standards?

Do you not see where the lines are muddled in community mindset?

We need to develop the art of compartmentalization.

amother

Orchid

Thu, Jul 28 2022, 10:12 pm

Not_in_my_town wrote:

So now it's not tznuis to drink out of a bottle? Confused

And you seriously don't get how it's based on social standards?

Can't Believe It

The community decides what is "dignified" and some of those levels of dignity may be based on shtuss. Yup. I stand by that.

In my community, as said, wearing a tichel to the grocery is considered inappropriate. Why?
Because that is what the community has chosen to push.

But I choose to side with Hashem and let actual halacha lead the way.

The Taryag mitzvos and halacha are my guidebook, thank you very much.

I’m surprised you never heard of the concept of Tzniyus and dignity being intertwined. It’s rather fundamental.
Also, the lines are not clearly drawn. That’s where sechel comes in. I said “SOME” when it came to drinking from bottles. That’s not as universally accepted. But I don’t think I’m alone in the frum OR secular world in thinking pjs outside being undignified.
Side point - siding with hashem doesn’t only mean taryag mitzvos. There’s also hashkafah, things like “al tifrosh min hatzibur”, the way a yid looks and dresses (lots of sources for this).
We don’t exist in a vacuum and follow the letter of the law while disregarding all other ideas that are not written explicitly in tanach.

Rubies

Thu, Jul 28 2022, 10:16 pm

Not_in_my_town wrote:

Let's discuss my statement before the experiment. Frumkeit is a version of yiddishkeit. Not to be confused with judgement or standards.

As for your experiment, again doesn't prove much.
I'm not sure I understood the chasunah dress reference? Just because some poor woman was told it'd a beautiful dress didn't make it more appropriate. She'll probably cringe at the pictures one day when it hits her.

The women with the condition is trying her best under extenuating circumstances. It still doesn't change the objective reality. I'm sure she'd prefer to be having more options.
Same as using a phone is assur on shabbos, but muttar under extenuating circumstances.

Not_in_my_town

Thu, Jul 28 2022, 10:19 pm

Dear Orchid,
I also think it's rather undignified to be outside in pjs. But I don't think it has anything to do with tznuis, per say. Morever, I believe we can impose non-halachic standards upon ourselves but not upon others.

If someone else comes outside in a tznuis nightgown, nu. She's tznuis. Look on the bright side.

It doesn't mean that you should follow suit.

You be you, and let she be she.

The world would be far better if we knew halacha from chumrah, halacha from societal rules, etc. And if we praised people for following basic halacha and allowed them freedom to grow in whichever area they choose as they choose. Imposing societal standards on someone is the most sure-fire way to break a human being.

You know, I had a conversation with the rebitzin who adopted me last Friday, and she told me that she came to accept that I'm not doing anything wrong by just being me, without all the frum trappings, but that's only because I wasn't born into her society... She said that if someone from her own family was to cover her hair in a different manner than she does, that child would absolutely be a bum, and it would be her job to give her mussar.

I was flabberghasted. I told her, "But she's covering her hair! That is a mitzvah! She'd be doing something beautiful!"

But many people in this society are too blinded by their own standards that they forget that if someone is fulfilling halacha, then they are bending their will to the Bashefer's and that is so, so astonishingly beautiful.
How can you look down on that? How can you justify that?

amother

Mulberry

Thu, Jul 28 2022, 10:34 pm

Not_in_my_town wrote:

Part of tzenuis is to not attract attention or cause heads to turn, people to give an extra glance. A women standing on the street in a white night robe, definitely attracts attention and causes people to give an extra glance.

amother

Orchid

Thu, Jul 28 2022, 10:42 pm

Not_in_my_town wrote:

this conversation is not about “looking at the bright side” or judging people. It’s objectively speaking, is there a lack in Tzniyus going outside in clothing that is meant for the bedroom. And I actually do know my chumrah from Halacha, and I don’t think they are as neatly and clearly compartmentalized as you seem to think they are (that part is separate from my previous point). It seems like you’ve put yiddishkeit into specific parameters, and you don’t like how others are conflating things, and implying broader crossover than you’re comfortable with.

amother

Stone

Thu, Jul 28 2022, 10:44 pm

Not_in_my_town wrote:

I know a couple who, many years ago, got last minute discount tickets to go on a cruise. They were going to be away over Shabbos, but the wife packed vacation type Shabbos clothing - skirt and sweater but nothing fancy while the husband packed his usual suit. They discovered when they were already on the ship that the cruise has a formal night and no one would be allowed in the main dining room unless dressed appropriately. Most people who wanted to avoid the formal night could go eat at another shipboard restaurant that night but kosher food (airline type meals) was only served in the main dining room so this couple was stuck. The husband could wear his regular suit but the wife didn't think to pack a gown. Then she realized that her robe would probably look like a gown to anyone not frum, so she ended up going to formal night in her robe and no one even blinked.

Context is crucial and societal norms differ greatly depending on where you are.

amother

Mulberry

Thu, Jul 28 2022, 11:17 pm

amother [ Skyblue ] wrote:

Just saying that the women walking out in her nightgown would probably find it quite amusing that there are 7 pages written up dissecting her decision that she made when she groggily hopped out bed one morning realizing that her son's bus is coming in 5 minutes.

Except that it wasn't a one time thing and it's not 5 minutes..... and it's not early morning either.
The discussion isn't about her per se, by now we're discussing if it's appropriate.

amother

Skyblue

Thu, Jul 28 2022, 11:25 pm

amother [ Mulberry ] wrote:

Except that it wasn't a one time thing and it's not 5 minutes..... and it's not early morning either.
The discussion isn't about her per se, by now we're discussing if it's appropriate.

I know, I get your point. I think there is something off with people going outside in night attire. No need to convince me. I'm not saying she isn't frum or tznius. I think it's socially off and she might not be good at "reading the room".

I just thought it's funny how the neighbors nightgown is is morphing into a philosophical discussion over pages and pages.

amother

Mulberry

Thu, Jul 28 2022, 11:26 pm

amother [ Skyblue ] wrote:

I didn't think it would become such a discussion.....

amother

Skyblue

Thu, Jul 28 2022, 11:27 pm

amother [ Wine ] wrote:

I have a velour robe I wear during the winter. I need a summer one now!
is that also considered inppropriate to wear in front of men like sitting on my porch shabbos afternoon? (still learning... I dont know whats considered the norm in yeshiivhs community)

https://thelingerieshopny.com/......html (something like the second pic)

These are so beautiful. Might depend where you're from. I wear such a robe while sitting out, taking a walk in my neighborhood... I wouldn't go visit someone far with it though.

Not_in_my_town

Fri, Jul 29 2022, 8:59 am

Just woke up and not going to comment on all of the comments now as I have to get kids to the bus, but to the poster who asked about those pretty Shabbos robes: It has to do with social context, as the woman with the cruise story so well explained.

Those Shabbos robes are perfectly tznuis. However, if you are in Williamsburg, for instance, or any other very chasidishe community, the local rabbonim hold that it is not tznuis to walk outdoors in one.
Does that mean no one does? Nope. Most people realized it's narishkeit and they will continue wearing their Shabbos robes outside. Others will wear the robes but pull them up with a belt so that they won't be long.

That's one of the frum dichotomies that make no sense:

Long skirts during the week are considered not tznuis to wear outside, though some "rebels" will wear a slinky skirt in front of their own house.

Long robes during Shabbos are generally worn, but the ultra-frum consider them not tznuis outside of the house.

Go figure.