Mishpacha Double Take

camp123

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 1:28 am

A horrible story. Can't believe people would act like this in real life. A mother has spent 20 years raising her kid, doing everything for them. In this case they have a good relationship. If you dont want to involve her you at least answer her call of concern by saying there is a problem and there are professionals dealing with it. If your daughter doesn't want to discuss it with you you need to respect that but she should know that it's being handled sensitively. Personally, I think the daughter in this case should be urged to confide in her mother, it will take a huge weight off her shoulders if her mother responds appropriately. But, that depends on the mother. But, leaving any mother who is concerned in the dark is stupid, inconsiderate and displays a tremendous lack of hakaras hatov. And to top it off they are being stolen from and deceived by supporting him when he is not really in kollel.

allthingsblue

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 1:29 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

The sil was being supported by his ils and sitting home doing absolutely nothing while the daughter was running around for help. No children involved, would you really, as a parent want your daughter encouraged to stay in such a situation? I could hear it if the guy was productive but not learning but this guy seems to be dealing with heavy issues.

The daughter wasn’t encouraged to stay but rather encouraged to explore it objectively and honestly with the help of professional therapists.

amother

Aconite

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 1:33 am

amother [ Honeydew ] wrote:

The Kallah teacher should be telling her students that in some situations you should confide in your parents if they will be supportive. To teach Kallahs to never confide is wrong.

Why?
In my case dh had situational depression. If my parents knew he didn’t go to minyan didn’t learn and watched p0rn they’d never forget it and never look at him the same way and my relationship with them would honestly be not the same because bH dh got the right help from a therapist, and the situation causing depression changed, and he is the best dh I could ask for. But if I knew my parents didn’t respect him I wouldn’t be able to keep up a close relationship with them.

It was hard going through it but bH we got through.

amother

Honeydew

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 1:39 am

amother [ Aconite ] wrote:

I wrote in situations where the parents would be supportive.. you can't compare the emotional support and love parents can give to anything else

amother

Cerulean

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 1:57 am

amother [ Aconite ] wrote:

Honeydew said "in some situations". Obviously, if depression was situational, you were dealing with it professionally and didn't need your parents' support, no one is saying you were wrong in not telling them. What if depression isn't situational, though?

camp123

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 2:07 am

amother [ Aconite ] wrote:

If they weren't concerned you wouldn't need to tell them anything. But if they were concerned and knew something was up, then you could at least say, that you are getting professional help for an issue that we can resolve and you prefer not to involve them. It doesn't help to ignore concerned parents. At least communicate something, they are not idiots.

amother

Hunter

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 2:59 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

But if she knew the true state of her daughters marriage she would be horrified and probably want her daughter to leave. Don't you think this girl was in over her head? Shouldn't someone have suggested to her that in such extreme situations it's ok to involve a parent? She is in a terrible situation with probably years of struggle ahead of her, shouldn't someone who is totally in her camp be involved? I really felt like things were being smoothed out for the husband on her chesbon and on the parents dime.

1. The situation didn't sound as extreme as you're making it out to be. Her husband was struggling. He's not being abusive, they still enjoy each others company... it sounded like he just needed a little time to get his footing right. happens to a lot of people at some point in their life.
2. its in no way a parents place to tell their kid to leave a marriage. thats the kids decision to make, of course with the help of professionals. if you trust your kid enough to get married and start a family you should trust them enough to make good decisions.

I think the kallah teacher should've told the daughter that her mom reached out, and asked her for permission to tell her mother that she's going through something but is getting the professional help and support she needs. let the mother sleep at night, but also respect the daughter's decision to do this on her own.

amother

Pistachio

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 3:26 am

Where the kallah teacher went wrong is that she did not tell the young wife to tell her mother. She should have taken away the shame and just told her "It's not your fault that you were deceived. You should not be ashamed about it. Go and tell your parents, have an open discussion. They will try and help you and you will decide together what to do".

The kalla teacher also should have told Miri when Miri's mother contacted her. She should have told Miri that her mother was worried, that her mother had seen something was not right, and should have used this as more encouragement to tell her mother what was happening.

This situation, that the kalla and her family had been deceived by the choson and people around him, is completely different than regular small conflicts at the beginning of a marriage, that maybe should not be divulged to parents. The kalla teacher failed to recognize this.

Also: It was not the kalla teacher's business to find funding for psychotherapy or marriage counseling. That was well intentioned, but out of place and unprofessional. Also: the fact that she found funding helped the young wife to keep the secret from her parents and this is unhealthy.

No therapist should encourage unhealthy secrets. And that's what this kallah teacher did. So she did really act in a very unprofessional way.

Furthermore, I'm not sure if I understood right, but if the kallah teacher lied to the mother (denying Miri was seeing her), this would have been extremely unprofessional too.

So while I agree that the kallah teacher could not betray her client's confidentiality, she still was completely wrong.

The "keeping up appearances" was very unhealthy for Miri (and her husband) in this situation. The kallah teacher should not have encouraged that.

essie14

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 4:11 am

amother [ Pistachio ] wrote:

I agree.
If the child has a good relationship with her parents then she should be encouraged to keep the lines of communication open with them. Not every nitty-gritty detail, but certainly to say "yes, we are having some growing pains and we are seeing a professional therapist. I'm not in danger and there is no abuse. Just some things we want to work out together "

It's terrible for a KT to encourage such secrecy. What if she had a kallah who was being abused? Who needed parental support to get out of a bad marriage?

amother

Scarlet

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 4:35 am

I also believe the Kallah teacher was wrong and should’ve said something to the mother or encouraged Miri that in some instances if she feels the need to tell parents then she should to get support. I find it’s wrong that the Kallah teachers preach this not telling parents and they don’t teach us to look out for red flags. Due to this I dared not go to my parents when things were completely off in my marriage and kept it a secret as were told we’re not supposed to go to parents and I stayed in a horrible marriage because of it. I’m finally out years later when things could’ve been prevented from escalating and gotten out sooner but an innocent naive good girl follows and listens to her Kallah teacher and the repercussions are much worse later on.... I wish I can turn back the clock and have been educated better at my younger years.

amother

Hunter

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 5:17 am

amother [ Scarlet ] wrote:

I think this is the part that wrong. part of teaching kallahs should include teaching how to recognize red flags, how to speak up or seek the proper support if you feel something is off or if you feel unsafe. I'm totally with you on that.
I think what this story brings up though is having parents get involved in marital issues that don't involve abuse. sometimes it is better to leave parents out of it because they could just complicate things. once there's abuse though its a whole different story.

amother

Gardenia

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 6:12 am

amother [ Scarlet ] wrote:

Similar situation. The frum fixation on not saying anything negative about your husband to family (and my inexperienced and naive belief in it) kept me from breathing a word to my parents about anything and from getting the support I needed and deserved.

It’s many years later and bH I’m happily remarried and obviously I had to go through what I did but ultimately my being encouraged not to share anything challenging I went through in my marriage resulted in my staying in a bad situation longer than I should have and was definitely NOT in my best interest.

amother

Quince

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 6:40 am

amother [ Charcoal ] wrote:

I was a kallah whose dh cared abt yiddishkeit but wasn't going to learn steadily, wasn't going to Daven steadily...
I didn't tell anyone. dh kept reminding me not to ever involve parents...

Since then he's been diagnosed with anxiety and depression.
Was emotionally neglected as a child.

He will probably never function as a perfectly normal husband, holding down a career our kollel.

We told my mother after a decade. She is a lot more attuned now, and picks up if I'm sounding down. I don't really confide in her though, because marriage is private.
I did find myself a therapist to talk to.

Yes that was a tremendous disappointment tho me. Yes we have SB Problems and lack of respect

I'm so sorry for what you went through.

Do you wish you would have been encouraged early on to confide in your parents?
What if that would mean they escalated things?

I think most parents, even healthy parents, tendency to escalate something like this, combined with their long memories, is why there is such a culture of keeping things private.

On the other hand, I believe the "privacy" rule grew from helping daughters mostly close to their parents navigate keeping insignificant things private and evolved to this culture of secrecy where in a super important relationship a girl is denied the insight of her parents.

Curious about your thoughts and those who went through something similar.

amother

Ghostwhite

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 7:21 am

amother [ Quince ] wrote:

This. My daughter is a very happily married newlywed and yet she chooses to keep everything private from me. She won't share small and non-personal positive tidbits with me like if her husband did or bought something nice for her or his success in learning etc. I put in so much of my heart and soul and time and work to marry her off beautifully and now I wish I could be enjoying the nachas, she is keeping me at arms length distance and won't talk to me about anything more than her cooking and housework. To protect her privacy. It really hurts. Newlyweds, if all is good or mostly good, there is alot you can share with your parents. And in laws! That won't betray your marriage at all but bring them lots of joy.

amother

Quince

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 8:24 am

amother [ Ghostwhite ] wrote:

But she won't.

Even if she wants to.

Because she was taught not to. She was taught it is bad for her marriage.

amother

Wandflower

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 8:36 am

Terrible.
This poor girl.
And poor mother.
Rule of thumb not to involve does not apply to everything.
And can be further isolating.
Yes involve professionals as well.
In a normal healthy situation parents love their children and want what is best for them more than anyone else in the world.
This is a good thing.
To marry and find out your new husband is not interested in yiddishkeit yes I'd say thats a crisis.