Afula - New Anglo Community

amother

Valerian

Tue, Sep 20 2022, 7:47 am

@Ginger if there's no real issues as kiwi is saying why on earth would multiple families completely change their aliyah plans, find a new apartments and re-evaluate everything a month before making aliyah?

Who does that just because things a little disorgazined or there's Israeli beuracracy.

You think there's no disorganization, little hiccups, and beurocratic issues in the alternative places these families moved to last minute?

LovesHashem

Tue, Sep 20 2022, 7:50 am

amother Charcoal wrote:

This. I was also wondering about that. I remember when we loked at a certain community in the south many years ago. We were told that they were just starting to build homes now and that the people moving in would be in about 5 - 6 years. We ended up not going as we needed to find a place to live then, but thats the normal time frame for home building. This was so fast.

Their website promised home, Schools, and everything would be ready by this coming year. Sounds so unrealistic to me but I'm sure there were/are people who are more naive, or don't understand/know that this takes time and made aliyah believing that.

I also know it takes a lot for an Israeli community, forget an American community to get off the ground here because it's very hard for Israeli chareidim to accept yeshivish Americans.

Kiwi13

Tue, Sep 20 2022, 7:50 am

amother Ginger wrote:

I know 100% who you are. You and I have had no direct contact, and I have made no decisions that have impacted you directly. I do not think you actually know who I am.

Then perhaps it's worse than I thought. More than one very, very similar situation. Everyone talking and acting the same by now... I have contacts up there who've been ousted. They've updated me on the current situation. It's not the way you describe, and you're leaving gaping holes in your descriptions for obvious reasons. I bet someone is frantically redoing the website as we speak before it'll be permitted to be posted?

I'm sure you do know who I am. I'm open about it - you can easily search this site and find my full name. I have nothing to hide and I live with integrity. Once I broke the "don't share info" barrier and people finally started comparing notes, there were quite a few more who backed out, did you notice that? I sat in a parking lot wishing I was dead after all your community put me through that day, until the phone calls started pouring in THANKING ME for finally exposing the corruption.

By the way, wasn't it noteworthy to anyone else that all questions had to be addressed privately with leaders, no directory* was allowed (despite many requests by members!), and details never quite added up, yet we were not permitted to discuss amongst ourselves or have group zoom meetings to ask questions? Didn't that bother anyone else? I know it bothered me and several others who either left or were kicked out...

*Think about it - no directory permitted even as they touted it as a COMMUNITY-BASED program!! The reason was glaringly obvious: They did NOT have the numbers they claimed, not even CLOSE. And people were dropping like flies.

amother

Carnation

Tue, Sep 20 2022, 8:09 am

amother Ginger wrote:

Wow, okay, this thread took quite a turn.
I'm sure you're all aware that we're in Israel, it was night, and at some point we had to go take care of our families and go to sleep.
I saw that people had posted new responses, and fully intended to come back online at some point today to address them all at once, rather than reply disjointedly to everyone individually.
But a reminder, as NeonBlue said, we are REAL PEOPLE! Any discussions about our community, especially for everyone to see on a public forum like this, (good or bad) directly impacts our lives. So please tread carefully. Yes, everyone has the right to inquire about or be wary of whatever they so choose, but when random information or speculations are thrown out there, you are directly impacting real people’s lives. We invested time, energy, and yes, money too (aliyah is expensive) to try and make this work out.
As for kiwi13, I am genuinely sorry for any hurt you may have experienced. I truly am. I don’t know the specifics of your situation, I can say that there are a few things in your longer post that are simply not true. Absolutely no one called you unhinged. The posts that were made after you left were one to clarify any confusion that may have set in from things that had changed, or situations people may have been unaware of, and a short little chizuk vort about aliyah in general. I don’t know where you think you were being discussed or bashed, but no such discussions took place. The contracts we signed were for our apartment, and to pay back a loan. Said loan was from a well known and generous individual from Baltimore that went towards an advance on several months rent to secure our apartments. No weird contracts, no fraudulent funds.
I’m happy to take the time to answer all sincere questions. If you feel that things weren’t being responded to it’s because it was obvious that a frequent poster here had a bad experience and that perhaps some thought engaging wouldn’t be helpful. I see that was potentially a mistake.

I can’t believe I have to say this but we’re not a cult! We see and talk to each other all the time. We discuss things amongst ourselves, and definitely discuss any and all community related things that come up. We also work, care for our families, run errands, and many of us are still figuring out setting up our homes, or navigating various aspects of aliyah. If someone from your hometown doesn’t talk to you often anymore, be DLKZ. We are all busy setting up our lives in a new country with a 7-10 hour time difference. I have also for sure seen other families continue posting on Facebook and putting up whatsapp statuses. There is no non-disclosure agreement, manipulation or gaslighting. We run our own lives, and the rav is only as involved as we each, individuals, want him to be. I mostly only see him on Shabbos at the women's shiur, if I pass him outside, or if I have a shaila.

So what's the status of the school? Everyone is still dancing around that question.

amother

Charcoal

Tue, Sep 20 2022, 8:17 am

amother Ginger wrote:

But a reminder, as NeonBlue said, we are REAL PEOPLE! Any discussions about our community, especially for everyone to see on a public forum like this, (good or bad) directly impacts our lives. So please tread carefully. Yes, everyone has the right to inquire about or be wary of whatever they so choose, but when random information or speculations are thrown out there, you are directly impacting real people’s lives. We invested time, energy, and yes, money too (aliyah is expensive) to try and make this work out.

Amother ginger, Im sure you dont realize this but the fact that you are saying what you are saying, shows a lot that things are not as they were said to be or meant to be. Why do I say this? Because if things were all great and how they were meant to be, you and the other posters there as well, would have no issues with telling all. It is very telling that you are all closed up about everything.
And of course the way to learn about a community is to literally get info from people who live there, the good, the bad and the ugly.

amother

Charcoal

Tue, Sep 20 2022, 8:18 am

amother Carnation wrote:

So what's the status of the school? Everyone is still dancing around that question.

And that says so much, unfortunately.

amother

NeonBlue

Tue, Sep 20 2022, 8:21 am

amother Carnation wrote:

So what's the status of the school? Everyone is still dancing around that question.

As I said before, my children attend the schools. The boys school has been in session for close to three weeks, the girls school is in its second week.

I would like to express this to everyone asking for detailed information about what we pay for rent and the ages of our children in school, etc: we have nothing to hide, we are proud of what we are accomplishing together as a community. But I am very uncomfortable posting details for people that may or may not be interested in moving to our community, to begin dissecting in a suspicious way...it feels like sharing personal information about my life (and the lives of my friends) for Imamother's entertainment.

I would also like to share that many of our community members asked great Rabbanim (like Rav Kamenetsky and even Rav Chaim Kanievsky before he was niftar) about making Aliyah to this community, and were told to go, that this community would have success. If we are really such an awful cult with terrible reshaim leading us, that would not have happened!

Please, don't use this forum to spread gossip, even if you feel it is true or l'toeles. I'm sure it is the wrong thing to do.

amother

Ginger

Tue, Sep 20 2022, 8:27 am

amother Valerian wrote:

Why shouldn't they? The statistics pan out. Not everything is going to work for everyone, and sometimes people think they are willing to make certain sacrifices that they re-evaluate and in the end don't work.
I know people who have been in broken engagements. Does that mean every broken engagement means there's something wrong with someone? Sometimes they were both perfectly wonderful people, it just wasn't a good fit.
It's better that they were real with themselves and made the decision beforehand than made sacrifices to come and had it not work out, at the expense of their family.
As I said to YOU previously, I'm perfectly happy for my friends who aren't here. They made the tough decisions for their families that they needed to, and I wish them much hatzlacha.

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Sep 20 2022, 8:27 am

amother NeonBlue wrote:

Welcome to Israel Smile

Just so you know, it is a very normal in israel to ask people what they pay for rent and even how much they bought a house for Smile

So its not this big secret here.

amother

Ginger

Tue, Sep 20 2022, 8:31 am

amother OP wrote:

Can you elaborate more on some practicalities? I know things must have changed from way back in the planning stages when we got direct information from the founder and I was also told that information on the website has not been updated.

So can you talk about housing? Do all of the new olim live in the same 1 or 2 apartment buildings? Is everyone renting or are there units for sale?

What ages/genders are the schools for for this school year?

So exciting!

The website is in the process of being updated. kceafula.org
Happy to answer your housing questions!
Our landing zone for now is an area called Rova Yizrael. There are 2 new buildings the community had hoped to buy in the beginning. The govt was fine with non-israelis buying property, however the banks weren’t on board, and after various other considerations we’re just renting directly from the kablan in the end. Rent for the apartments ranges from 4 bedroom to penthouse, and the prices are 3800-6300 shekel. There’s a boys school and a girls school that span all ages, They are both small as we are a small group for now, but what I’ve seen the kids get along really well for having just met this summer. I think that’s a huge relief to all the parents.

As I said, this is our landing zone, the hope is to move to Afula Illit in the next few years and get more established as a community as more people come. The shul is currently in an apartment, we’d move that to a real building. The schools are currently sharing space with an Israeli school in Kfar Gidon, we’d have our own spaces for the schools as well. Like someone later in the thread says it takes time to establish a community. We’re starting the process now, figuring things out, setting up roots, and hopefully things can go from there.

amother DarkGreen wrote:

I would also love to hear how the new Yishuv is doing. Also very interested in apartments for sale. Are you anywhere near the Rabbi's that had a special Zoom meeting of Afula? Was it Rabbi Chait/Rabbi Berman? Is it near the new area for Chassidim? Do you need a car to get around?

The area we’re looking to settle in would be in Afula Illit, a slightly different area than where we landed. Afula Illit is where the Visnitz Chassidim are living. We frequent a makolet near where most of them live, it’s a nice, older, more settled area, and the owner of the makolet is so nice! He’s not religious, and works so hard to cater to the chareidim in the area, so we get a lot of non-shmita produce there, as well as other mehadrin foods.
If I’m thinking of the same zoom meeting, are you talking about Rabbi Baruch Harris? He lives in an area called Givat HaMoreh, not so far from Afula Illit. I met his wife, she’s lovely.
A car definitely makes life easier, but I would say only half of us, if even, have cars. Most people make it work using the buses or utilizing deliveries. The makolet I mentioned does free deliveries for purchases over 150 shek, very convenient!

amother Mintcream wrote:

Amother Ginger and Neonblue - The new community sounds great, but a lot of this discussion is also somewhat vague. Can you please elaborate on some of the changes, both major and minor, to what was originally anticipated, as well as some of the challenges you face as a community and individuals, whether through Israeli bureaucracy or other issues?

Sorry we seemed vague, I guess we just didn’t feel the need to elaborate at the time, I’m happy to answer specific questions.
Some changes would include whether or not we were buying the buildings. There was just a lot of back and forth about that in the beginning until we ultimately decided to just rent. Where the shul would be, it was supposed to be in a building of its own, more bureaucratic back and forth, it’s in an apartment right now, but they are working on figuring out a better, larger, solution. Where our end-point is supposed to be. We were projecting new developments in Afula Green, sof sof, there was a lot of miscommunication with the kablanim, and we’ve shifted our focus to Afula Illit.

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Afula is anything but a yishuv. The population is over 54,000.

OP, can I just ask, I have no idea about this community and when someone wrote about this a few months ago I was amazed that an anglo community was going to be set up there as I knew afula as a very israeli city Smile

so are all of these new olim living near each other or spread out all over afula? Inquiring minds want to know Smile

Hi! Yes, Afula is VERY israeli. Our experience thus far is that sometimes you get lucky and find people who speak English, sometimes you don’t and have an amazing opportunity to practice your Hebrew skills! We’re living within the same 2 buildings for now, but we have a few Israerli families sprinkled throughout with us, gives us lots of chances to practice Hebrew. There’s a religious sephardi family who lives in one of the buildings whose kids have meshed quickly and easily with the kids from the community. The achdus has been lovely to see.

amother Valerian wrote:

If there's only 24 families then how are there schools?

Also the kehillah owns the apartments? That's a little interesting. That's quite costly. What's the rent like?

It’s a small group right now, more people are planning to come within the next year or so. The schools are small, but up and running.
We do not own the apartments, see above.

amother

Narcissus

Tue, Sep 20 2022, 8:45 am

amother Ginger wrote:

Here are some of the questions I've been able to take the time to answer thus far.
Also, people are so suspicious about us, who are ACTUALLY HERE, writing about having a positive experience, like what else do you want from us? Maybe we're actually having a positive experience?
We've been up front about that fact that issues have arisen, and we've done our best to think on our feet and troop through.

It’s a small group right now, more people are planning to come within the next year or so. The schools are small, but up and running.
We do not own the apartments, see above.

I believe all of the above. Thank you for taking the time to respond. The people I know who are involved (both in a leadership capacity and who have moved there) are intelligent and grounded people who would not have gone if there were concerns they felt could not be managed.

Kiwi13

Tue, Sep 20 2022, 8:55 am

I think it speaks volumes that you refuse to address the terrible pain caused to many in the process of getting the few families who made it to your community.

I think it speaks volumes that you glibly label legitimate letoeles as "gossip."

I think it speaks volumes that you suddenly came on with a slew of rehearsed-sounding info after initially claiming it wasn't appropriate for online sharing with strangers, lest they suspect you of cultish practices.

Yes, there are wonderful people in your group. Most are blind to the extent of the corruption behind the scenes. What would you say if I told you I approached leadership after having caught them in a series of lies that nearly wrecked everything for us, was offered a hush package so I'd go along with things anyway, they'd smooth it over for me, etc., but if anyone ever found out, they'd call me a liar and claim forgery and said nobody would ever believe my word against theirs? It's so unlike them, right?? What would you say if I begged the Rav to fix the situation and he flat out refused, preferring to throw me under the bus instead? But he's so kind and sincere, right? I thought so too.

And THAT was what hit me hardest, and what other people MUST know before getting too close: How loved you are in this community, until the second you're not.

Kiwi13

Tue, Sep 20 2022, 9:01 am

And if you are so concerned with lashon Hara and maligning real people, maybe there are some apologies your community ought to be making. I was fair game to all when I was the only one with the guts to publicly acknowledge that some independent thinking was in order. That was literally ALL I said in the chat. And the fall out was HORRIBLE. Don't talk to me about "maligning real people" if you stood by and watched that go down without a care!

amother

Ginger

Tue, Sep 20 2022, 9:02 am

amother Charcoal wrote:

Not really. Do you know anything about human nature? If everything was so black and white, the Chofetz Chaim wouldn't have written a whole sefer, and then a commentary on said sefer.
Let me refer you to Navi, Dovid Hamelech, Shaul, Doeg, the city of Nov.
Lashon hara kills. There have been so many outlandish and baseless speculations written on this thread based off of more assumptions and speculations. That's what I was referring to. People take things they hear and run with them, and this can cause endless pain to innocent people. Read my previous post answering what I had time to answer so far. We're not hiding anything.

amother

DarkGreen

Tue, Sep 20 2022, 9:09 am

Thank you for answering. Just a question. I truly believe that to build a Kehilla takes a while. But if you are not purchasing apartments now, won't the prices go up in a couple years? I thought the whole reason they had the Zoom Meeting was speaking about certain prices in certain areas, (the video was about 6 months ago) and they were cheaper then.(about 550.000 shekel - 650.000 shekel. Give or take) So why are pple waiting? (I might be getting mixed up with a couple video's I viewed. I did see Rabbi Berman and Rabbi Harris along with someone from Givat Hamoreh. I also saw the video where Rabbi Cadle spoke. ).

amother

NeonBlue

Tue, Sep 20 2022, 9:09 am

Kiwi13 wrote:

Oy Kiwi, as another poster said, no one maligned you or even spoke about you on the chat. Someone simply posted a response in defense of the community and an explanation of some of the frustrating changes that we all had to work through. Then a little inspiration about the challenges of Aliyah. We all understand that this community isn't for everyone, no one maligned you or anything like that.

Kiwi13

Tue, Sep 20 2022, 9:11 am

amother NeonBlue wrote:

Are you serious??? Would you like some screenshots?

I'm done here. I've made my point. You can battle it out with Hashem on Rosh Hashanah. You know where I stand.

amother

Ginger

Tue, Sep 20 2022, 9:19 am

Kiwi13 wrote:

Are you serious??? Would you like some screenshots?

I'm done here. I've made my point. You can battle it out with Hashem on Rosh Hashanah. You know where I stand.

I have screenshots too, I'm in the chat! I looked back again, you were not spoken negatively about. They addressed concerns and changes the kehila was experiencing to clarify any misunderstandings and a little d'var Torah.

I hope you're able to make peace with whatever you experienced. I can not speak for what happened in private chats, as of course I don't know, but I DO know what happened in the group chat, and it is not as you seem to believe.

amother

Ginger

Tue, Sep 20 2022, 9:24 am

amother DarkGreen wrote:

Some people are looking to buy, some aren't. There's also the debate of buying on paper vs buying something built. Everyone has their own considerations to make, so I think this will be a family by family basis. I'm sure things will pick up more in that respect when we have a concrete area outlined for where the community will settle more permanently.

amother

NeonBlue

Tue, Sep 20 2022, 9:38 am

Alternative wrote:

OK. I hope it all works out. I've just seen too often that when a community is too selective, two things happen:
a) people are excluded, often for reasons beyond their control. A lot of yeshuvim, for example, are reluctant to accept single mothers or unemployed couples, because they worry they will be a burden on the community down the line. That's very problematic. I dont know if this community does the same.
b) People change a few years down the line, and then it's very complex for them to fit in with a super homogenous community.

I want to add that I find this to be an extremely INCLUSIVE community... it's like the vetting allowed for a group of diverse people to be happy with the same shul and schools. And I am grateful to the Rav for being careful to get references on families to avoid potentially dangerous people joining (for example, we all know of people that ran to Israel from America when they were developing a reputation for crimes...). It's just important to me to say this - this is a really, really nice group of people. I am sad anyone feels hurt, but it's not a hurtful group. Really the opposite!