dd's outfit for grad rejected

cookielady

Thu, May 29 2008, 2:40 pm

I wasnt clear. I went to school in NY. Here, out of town,the graduations are not together, What I meant by different colors was not so you could tell them apart at one graduation, but different graduations, and different colors, I guess so the 12th graders felt different than 8th graders.

louche

Thu, May 29 2008, 3:05 pm

lubmommy8 wrote:

Maybe it's following the customs of the non jews.

My alma mater (elem) introduced gowns when miniskirts made their appearance. No one had to judge anyone's skirt length or reject anyone's outfit.

in college there were always those guys who wore shorts and t-shirts under their gowns. lucky them, considering graduation is always outdoors in the unshaded stadium on a sweltering hot Sunday in May.

mumoo

Thu, May 29 2008, 3:09 pm

I agree that as long as the outfit is tznius (according to ther policy) it should be allowed.

I don't agree that you should play a game by waiting until the last minute and forcing their hand. This sends a message to dd that it's ok to be sneaky.

You have every right to be above board and speak to the principal. I'd let her know that you understand complying to the schools written dresscode but finances and chinuch do not allow you to comply with someone's personal tastes. Period.

She can't make your daughter miss graduation, can she? Exploding anger

Aren't you glad the year is over?

cassandra

Thu, May 29 2008, 3:14 pm

I am horrified when I hear these things and really think the nitpicking that goes on in some schools about what the girls wear really undermines the entire concept of tznius and is highly counterproductive to that end.

That being said, maybe she could wear a black shell under the vest so that it looks more like a jacket from far away?

Fox

Thu, May 29 2008, 4:00 pm

The whole issue of 8th grade "graduation" bothers me enormously.

They are only "graduating" in the most colloquial sense of the word: they aren't receiving a diploma or degree, and continued participation in some kind of educational program is mandatory in all U.S. states, so they're not marking the end of their formal educational careers.

These pseudo-graduations were originally started for "underprivileged" kids who were at risk of dropping out in the late 50s/early 60s. The experience of a "graduation" was supposed to make them hungry for greater educational accomplishment. I don't know if it worked, but the legacy is that we're stuck with these ridiculous ceremonies at every twist and turn.

My son's school handled it perfectly. They made a siyum with a meal organized and served by the boys themselves. Because the class was small, each boy delivered a short dvar Torah and was presented with a certificate saying he'd completed the curricula of the school. The word "graduation" was never officially used, and there were certainly no gowns! No mentions were made of superior academic achievement, and every Bubbie could have walked away thinking her own dear grandson was the best talmid in the group.

I've never understood why girls' schools can't do something similar. Make a nice siyum for the girls, and depending on the size of the class or whether fathers are invited, let the girls speak or present some other ruchnius-oriented entertainment. Hand out a certificate and a small keepsake and wish everyone a mazel tov.

Oh, and let the girls wear anything they would wear on Shabbos. And no plastic surgery so that the pictures will look nicer!

chaylizi

Thu, May 29 2008, 5:30 pm

when I graduated 8th grade, everyone wore shabbos outfits & no one saw beforehand. they just warned us that if we weren't tznius, they would send us home to change. I got a diploma for eighth grade. it is meaningful for kids who go to completely different schools after. in ny the schools only go up until 8th grade & then they go to high school. same with yeshiva ketana. why can't kids graduate from the school they went to. it only gets sticky when you stay in the same building & go from the "intermediate division" to the "high school division", but every other school gets it & those eighth graders don't want to be left out.

flowerpower

Thu, May 29 2008, 7:06 pm

If its not for tznuis purposed then you should defenitaly call the principal. I know they want the students to look good and frum bec that shows the reflection of the school. The only time I wore "kosher" enough panty hose in school was at my graduation. But bec. it's for another reason then hopefully you can get your way.

louche

Thu, May 29 2008, 8:32 pm

Fox wrote:

These pseudo-graduations were originally started for "underprivileged" kids who were at risk of dropping out in the late 50s/early 60s. The experience of a "graduation" was supposed to make them hungry for greater educational accomplishment.

Your source for this? My mother is a product of the NYC public schools, having been graduated from 6th grade in PS Whatever in 1938. You'd better believe they had a graduation with white dresses and diplomas. The kids were leaving PS Whatever and going on to JHS Somethingelse, though it's quite likely that some of them were going to go out to work and not go on to JHS Somethingelse, mandatory education law or no.

My sister was graduated from our local Hebrew Academy Grade 8 in 1961. You'd better believe they had a graduation with white dresses and diplomas, too. I hardly think any of the kids qualified as "underprivileged', and every single one went on to high school.

Neither the 1938 ceremony nor the 1961 one was a "pseudo-graduation". when you complete one stage of education, whether or not you're going on to the next stage, and whether or not your education to date renders you fit to enter the workforce, it's appropriate to celebrate the milestone with a ceremony of some sort.

none of which has any bearing upon whether it's appropriate for a school admin to take it upon herself to decide that a girl's outfit isn't dressy enough. If you want uniformity, issue specific guidelines or rent gowns. To have a family buy an outfit and then tell them it's not appropriate when tznius isn't the issue, is just plain wrong.

amother

Thu, May 29 2008, 10:18 pm

I am a BY teacher, and I had a couple of thoughts while reading this thread.

Is it possible that the principal wants to make sure your daughter feels comfortable? The outfit you described sounds lovely, but if every other girl in the class will be in a jacket/skirt combo, your daughter might feel underdressed. Eighth graders can be painfully self-conscious.

If the school just ended their "suits only" policy this year, it seems like this graduation has always been a fancy occasion. I can understand why the principal might not like the idea of girls wearing something much more casual than she's used to. I personally wouldn't be bothered by it, but I can see how she might feel. I don't think she's necessarily trying to make all the girls look a certain way to boost her school's reputation, ch'v, I just think that the graduation involves a tremendous amount of work and planning on her part, and is a source of nachas, and it may be a bigger deal to her than it is to you. It's one night during the year when, instead of having to deal with pre-teen mood swings and demanding parents and budget crunches, she gets to shep nachas and see everyone up on stage looking their best and glowing with hope and excitement for the future. I know that I personally get a lot of chizuk from graduation.

These are just my thoughts and may be completely wrong about the situation! I am sorry you're having to go through this frustration.

Seraph

Fri, May 30 2008, 7:43 am

I never had a graduation. Tongue Out

In 6th grade, we put on a performance about miriam for our mothers, and women in the community. And then we had a melave malka. We wore blue skirts and white shirts and gold ribbons in our hair.

And we had a brunch in school on day where parents came.

And then on to high school- starting 7th grade.

And because of my interesting schooling, if I wanted to go to graduation, I'd have to fly to main to graduate with a class I'd never met before. I got my diploma and my tassel mailed to me. Tongue Out

Clarissa

Fri, May 30 2008, 8:07 am

I've never been to any of my graduations. In my day (you know, when Truman was president), they didn't have graduations for eighth grade, sixth grade, kindergarten, preschool, completing gestation and successfully leaving the mother's uterus, etc. There was high school and college, and possibly graduate school, if you'd earned that, which I didn't.

The summer of my high school graduation I was working at a camp where they gave us two Sundays off. One of mine was going to be my high school graduation. I had rented the gown and asked for the day off. Then a co-worker friend asked if I wouldn't rather use the day to drive into the city and have some Chinese food. You can guess which I chose.

I graduated from college a semester late, which meant I would have had to attend the graduation of the class behind mine. I knew nobody in that class but an ex-boyfriend who was still angry at me, so it didn't feel like it would be a warm, fuzzy occasion, me standing in a sea of strangers, except for the one guy glaring at me.

So I've never been at a graduation of my own. To make up for it, I hum "Pomp and Circumstance" whenever I win at Trivial Pursuit.