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Forum
-> Household Management
-> Finances
Chayalle
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 Thu, Nov 17 2022, 1:18 pm
| ShishKabob wrote: | | You're good Chayalla, I guess you are way more articulate than me. Thank you for expressing my sentiments when I'm clearly lacking in the communications department. Thank you! |
I guess I just like to cut to the heart of the issue. I personally would never want to charge my kids for services in my home, like food or a load of laundry. And Hashem should help that I should never need it. But if OP needs help, and her adult child is in a position to offer that in some way, it shouldn't be about the fact that he/she lives at home, but more about what his/her Chiyuvim of Kibbud Av V'Eim are, which can be clarified by his/her LOR.
However, I do acknowledge that giving it as rent/contribution to living expenses might make it easier for OP and her husband to accept.
I know adult children whose parents don't want their help, who find a way to give it without the parents realizing there's help involved. For example - bringing food when they come for Shabbos/YT. I know someone whose parents have an account in a certain grocery, and she goes and puts money on it to pay their food bill down without them realizing.....
ETA I remember my mother AH telling me that when she was a little girl, they would visit her elderly paternal grandparents every Sunday, and she remembered seeing her father AH quietly slipping some bills into a drawer in their home where they kept petty cash.....
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ShishKabob
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Thu, Nov 17 2022, 1:21 pm
| Chayalle wrote: | I guess I just like to cut to the heart of the issue. I personally would never want to charge my kids for services in my home, like food or a load of laundry. And Hashem should help that I should never need it. But if OP needs help, and her adult child is in a position to offer that in some way, it shouldn't be about the fact that he/she lives at home, but more about what his/her Chiyuvim of Kibbud Av V'Eim are, which can be clarified by his/her LOR.
However, I do acknowledge that giving it as rent/contribution to living expenses might make it easier for OP and her husband to accept.
I know adult children whose parents don't want their help, who find a way to give it without the parents realizing there's help involved. For example - bringing food when they come for Shabbos/YT. I know someone whose parents have an account in a certain grocery, and she goes and puts money on it to pay their food bill down without them realizing.....
ETA I remember my mother AH telling me that when she was a little girl, they would visit her elderly paternal grandparents every Sunday, and she remembered seeing her father AH quietly slipping some bills into a drawer in their home where they kept petty cash..... | Totally this! Thanks again
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amother
Gardenia
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Thu, Nov 17 2022, 1:27 pm
| amother Maple wrote: | My concern is how resentful you seem to be. DC living elsewhere will not save you $. (Maybe your PSE&G/water/food bill is a little higher with child home)
My other question is in regard to how tone deaf DC is to having the savings, living there and not helping as you stress out. Does DC know how hard things are for you financially?
My parent/ILs did not support us when we got married (MO, was married at 21- currently in my 40’s) but were and still are always more than happy to have us for YT and send us home with left overs (and half the pantry and precooked frozen raw meat…), go shopping with me (both department stores and Costco) and insist on handing over their CC at the register ….. B”H they are comfortable and it is an attitude. My grandparents were the same with my parents and I intend to be the same with mine. My oldest graduates from college soon and will be working, living home or in the city-TBD. Well I don’t want him/her to miss out on the social life, it makes so much more sense to save $ and live home. I am so excited to not pay tuition.
My point being is that it really is situational dependent. I don’t think there is a norm or “right” thing to do. I don’t think it is wrong for your DC to be saving money for their future (btw- who is paying for the wedding….I have friends who payed for their own or we’re given a set sum and told to plan and anything about the sum was on them). I also don’t think it is wrong for DC to help out as a/he is living there rent free and I believe it would be significant even living with 5 others on the UWS. You real need to have a conversation. |
Maybe? A LITTLE higher?
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amother
Whitewash
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Thu, Nov 17 2022, 1:28 pm
| amother Begonia wrote: | | That's sad it would be considered odd to live with your parents. I don't see why an older unmarried child is pushed to live on their own. I think there is value to being with others in a household and especially parents as children can give nachas/honor to parents more easily while living together. It's more natural to me to keep living with family than living with other random friends/finding roommates. |
Whether or not you find it sad, it's reality in the MO world where a 30 year with a decent paying job still living at home is seen as odd and usually indicates something is a bit off. This isn't going to help her child get married and move out any quicker as many prospective dates will not be interested in meeting
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amother
Gardenia
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Thu, Nov 17 2022, 1:32 pm
| Chayalle wrote: | I guess I just like to cut to the heart of the issue. I personally would never want to charge my kids for services in my home, like food or a load of laundry. And Hashem should help that I should never need it. But if OP needs help, and her adult child is in a position to offer that in some way, it shouldn't be about the fact that he/she lives at home, but more about what his/her Chiyuvim of Kibbud Av V'Eim are, which can be clarified by his/her LOR.
However, I do acknowledge that giving it as rent/contribution to living expenses might make it easier for OP and her husband to accept.
I know adult children whose parents don't want their help, who find a way to give it without the parents realizing there's help involved. For example - bringing food when they come for Shabbos/YT. I know someone whose parents have an account in a certain grocery, and she goes and puts money on it to pay their food bill down without them realizing.....
ETA I remember my mother AH telling me that when she was a little girl, they would visit her elderly paternal grandparents every Sunday, and she remembered seeing her father AH quietly slipping some bills into a drawer in their home where they kept petty cash..... |
I dont know why people are equating food and a load of laundry. Food is darn expensive as everyone on imamother knows. There is no reason in the world why someone with a good paying job and a LOT of money saved, who is 25+ years old, should be eating food on a daily basis paid for by their parents. The small monthly amount he pays would never remotely cover this. That may cover for utilities and laundry and paper goods etc.. but not food.
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amother
Gardenia
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Thu, Nov 17 2022, 1:34 pm
| amother Whitewash wrote: | | Whether or not you find it sad, it's reality in the MO world where a 30 year with a decent paying job still living at home is seen as odd and usually indicates something is a bit off. This isn't going to help her child get married and move out any quicker as many prospective dates will not be interested in meeting |
I agree 100%. Unless there is a specific reason why someone is still living at home at that age (for example, helping out with a sick or disabled parent) it's not a good look. A generation ago it was much more prevalent to live at home for longer, but not now-a-days.
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Chayalle
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Thu, Nov 17 2022, 1:35 pm
| amother Gardenia wrote: | | I dont know why people are equating food and a load of laundry. Food is darn expensive as everyone on imamother knows. There is no reason in the world why someone with a good paying job and a LOT of money saved, who is 25+ years old, should be eating food on a daily basis paid for by their parents. The small monthly amount he pays would never remotely cover this. That may cover for utilities and laundry and paper goods etc.. but not food. |
I would never want to charge my kids for eating in my home.
In my mind, OP's need for help, and her child eating in her house, are two separate issues.
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Chayalle
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Thu, Nov 17 2022, 1:36 pm
| amother Whitewash wrote: | | Whether or not you find it sad, it's reality in the MO world where a 30 year with a decent paying job still living at home is seen as odd and usually indicates something is a bit off. This isn't going to help her child get married and move out any quicker as many prospective dates will not be interested in meeting |
In the yeshiva world it's quite normal, and IIRC OP said she lives in a yeshiva community.
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amother
Gardenia
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Thu, Nov 17 2022, 1:39 pm
| Chayalle wrote: | | In the yeshiva world it's quite normal, and IIRC OP said she lives in a yeshiva community. |
OP said "DC defines themselves as MO, and move in MO circles where most people his/her age (and please note that I stated 25+ -- I did not specify the actual age), are either married or living independently."
So if he is looking for a MO shidduch, living at home is not helping him.
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Reality
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Thu, Nov 17 2022, 1:41 pm
| amother Thistle wrote: | He might be clueless.
I would be happy if my child would date someone with such a large house down payment already, in the general sense..
He should put that on his shidduch resume lol |
That's what you think. Now when he is young enough is the time to work on his middos. A person who doesn't notice his parents hardships won't notice his spouses either. A house isn't everything in life.
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amother
Maple
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Thu, Nov 17 2022, 1:43 pm
| amother Whitewash wrote: | | Whether or not you find it sad, it's reality in the MO world where a 30 year with a decent paying job still living at home is seen as odd and usually indicates something is a bit off. This isn't going to help her child get married and move out any quicker as many prospective dates will not be interested in meeting |
30 years ago I would have found it weird as well. I would not have dated a guy who was 27 and living with Mommy (exceptions being if he was in law/medical school and parents lived in a convenient location for his commute to school, he went away to friends for Shabbos, his parents lived on the UWS and not in the suburbs….)
May of us leave the house for Sem/Yeshiva/college and it is very weird coming back and living at home after. It is done, but can be very trying. Home is also not were the social life is. It is weird to be the only one home and on Shabbos are you hanging out with your parents? An introvert and being alone? It’s a red flag.
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Reality
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Thu, Nov 17 2022, 1:45 pm
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I'm wondering about a car. OP, doesn't mention if her child has his own car or if he uses theirs. That's a big expense.
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Chayalle
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Thu, Nov 17 2022, 1:47 pm
| amother Gardenia wrote: | OP said "DC defines themselves as MO, and move in MO circles where most people his/her age (and please note that I stated 25+ -- I did not specify the actual age), are either married or living independently."
So if he is looking for a MO shidduch, living at home is not helping him. |
I hear that.
I find that when people change how they define themselves, it's sometimes a process. So even if DC defines as MO, they may not have realized or adapted that particular aspect, since they grew up in a world where living at home before marriage is pretty normal.
Oddly enough, in yeshivish circles someone NOT living at home is the anomaly and one would look for a reason in a shidduch....it could be a simple and normal reason (like, family lives OOT) but otherwise, would indicate an issue in the family and would not help a girl in shidduchim.
Boys are often in yeshiva, but otherwise a boy living on his own, or one who does not frequently go home to his family, would again raise the question of why.
The yeshivish view adult singles in a family unit as more healthy, not less so.
Interesting topic for another thread.
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amother
Zinnia
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Thu, Nov 17 2022, 4:25 pm
| amother Zinnia wrote: | | Perhaps I misunderstood as I thought Op's daughter (or son) older single was already doing this. Paying for her own groceries, working full time, preparing and having most of her meals on her own, paying for her own expenses, paying for her own shidduch related expenses, "contributing a small amount monthly", and doing her own laundry etc. - from Op's posts. |
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amother
Whitewash
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Thu, Nov 17 2022, 4:37 pm
| Chayalle wrote: | | In the yeshiva world it's quite normal, and IIRC OP said she lives in a yeshiva community. |
She said her child identifies as MO and has friends in that world who live on their own. Presumably the child is looking to marry someone from those circles as well.
Anyway at some point most yeshivish singles do move out on their own. Totally normal by the time they reach their 30s (which her child is close to, as she said 25+). Nobody would think it odd if a 32 year old yeshivish single girl or guy moved out of their parent's, for example.
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amother
OP
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Thu, Nov 17 2022, 5:22 pm
| Chayalle wrote: | I hear that.
I find that when people change how they define themselves, it's sometimes a process. So even if DC defines as MO, they may not have realized or adapted that particular aspect, since they grew up in a world where living at home before marriage is pretty normal.
Oddly enough, in yeshivish circles someone NOT living at home is the anomaly and one would look for a reason in a shidduch....it could be a simple and normal reason (like, family lives OOT) but otherwise, would indicate an issue in the family and would not help a girl in shidduchim.
Boys are often in yeshiva, but otherwise a boy living on his own, or one who does not frequently go home to his family, would again raise the question of why.
The yeshivish view adult singles in a family unit as more healthy, not less so.
Interesting topic for another thread. |
Good analysis. Yes, it is a process, and an adjustment -- for DC as well as for us. We are all accepting and respectful and B"H get along. But it is challenging at times; separating my own dreams and wishes from his/hers.
To maintain DC's confidentiality and dignity, I will refrain from going into great detail, and answering some of the questions, such as does DC's have their own car etc. However, I wish to clarify a few points and correct some misrepresentations:
* DC's is not a recluse. He/she does spend time with MO friends, and appears to be happier since finding a group of other singles he/she can associate with. People who know DC's personally will not see it as a 'red flag' that he/she is still living at home.
* I very much appreciate everyone's concern. However, our financial situation is currently strained but not dire. We are not Chalila in need of Tzdaka, and I am not asking for donations - -DC's or others. "Lo Chasar Lano V'al Yechsar Lanu Mazon L'olam V'aed". We have seen better; we have seen worse. It's going to be OK ( I hope and daven). It is just frustrating at times to be the primary breadwinner in a house with two grown men...At least DH is 'carrying his weight' by being an involved parent and helping around the house a lot. Not so much the case with DC who needs to be told most things. Yet:
* I also do not wish to portray DC as a 'villain'. He/she is not. DC is a kind person who tries to do the right thing but is sometimes clueless. He/she is very bright and advanced in some respects, and is a 'late bloomer' in others. I believe that B"H he/she will make a dedicated spouse and parent. They just need to come with a manual (just kidding  ). Their significant other may at times have to spell things out to get the results they need, but DC is open to learn and usually eager to please.
*Finally, a word about 'gold diggers': They are real, they are out there, and they are pretty easy to spot...Part of DC's naivete' is that he/she did not always recognize it even when it was staring in his/her face...Luckily, because he/she used to share with me about his/her dates at an earlier stage, and was open to guidance too, I was able to gently help him/her see it, and he/she no longer discloses sensitive information to others that would make him/her prey to such schemes.
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internationalma
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Thu, Nov 17 2022, 5:30 pm
I think parents should not take unless they absolutely need.. in most cases the kids know it and they help .
Your child sounds responsible and seems to be careful with his money to be able to settle him/herself once married. By the sound of it you will prob not contribute towards helping. So now at least you can help by letting the child save!
These days children have very little hope of ever owning an apt . 
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basyisrael18
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Thu, Nov 17 2022, 5:38 pm
I didn't read all of the responses here, but as a young adult, I lived at home for a few years before I got married. Label me Yeshivish if you need a label.
My parents told me that post-college, I didn't need to give them any money that I earned, but I also shouldn't cost them any money. If I wanted to buy something on their credit card that wasn't standard groceries or the like, I asked them first. I bought myself a laptop and went to EY to visit seminary with my own money during that post-college year - both with my own money. If my parents felt they needed to borrow some of my hard-earned money and pay it back later, they were welcome to - I offered numerous times to them when things were tight and was turned down with "no, it's your money".
I think it's nice for your child to be willing to lend you money and have you pay them back in 5 years or so. But Idk how to broach the topic if your child hasn't offered...
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amother
Whitewash
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Thu, Nov 17 2022, 5:40 pm
| amother OP wrote: | Good analysis. Yes, it is a process, and an adjustment -- for DC as well as for us. We are all accepting and respectful and B"H get along. But it is challenging at times; separating my own dreams and wishes from his/hers.
To maintain DC's confidentiality and dignity, I will refrain from going into great detail, and answering some of the questions, such as does DC's have their own car etc. However, I wish to clarify a few points and correct some misrepresentations:
* DC's is not a recluse. He/she does spend time with MO friends, and appears to be happier since finding a group of other singles he/she can associate with. People who know DC's personally will not see it as a 'red flag' that he/she is still living at home.
* I very much appreciate everyone's concern. However, our financial situation is currently strained but not dire. We are not Chalila in need of Tzdaka, and I am not asking for donations - -DC's or others. "Lo Chasar Lano V'al Yechsar Lanu Mazon L'olam V'aed". We have seen better; we have seen worse. It's going to be OK ( I hope and daven). It is just frustrating at times to be the primary breadwinner in a house with two grown men...At least DH is 'carrying his weight' by being an involved parent and helping around the house a lot. Not so much the case with DC who needs to be told most things. Yet:
* I also do not wish to portray DC as a 'villain'. He/she is not. DC is a kind person who tries to do the right thing but is sometimes clueless. He/she is very bright and advanced in some respects, and is a 'late bloomer' in others. I believe that B"H he/she will make a dedicated spouse and parent. They just need to come with a manual (just kidding ). Their significant other may at times have to spell things out to get the results they need, but DC is open to learn and usually eager to please.
*Finally, a word about 'gold diggers': They are real, they are out there, and they are pretty easy to spot...Part of DC's naivete' is that he/she did not always recognize it even when it was staring in his/her face...Luckily, because he/she used to share with me about his/her dates at an earlier stage, and was open to guidance too, I was able to gently help him/her see it, and he/she no longer discloses sensitive information to others that would make him/her prey to such schemes. |
OK. If I am reading the situation correctly based on your description it seems as though there are some mild limitations that don't preclude holding down a high level job, but may affect personal and social navigation?
If I am off, I apologize. But if so, that's a different story. If you want your child to be ready for marriage you can't let him flounder. You need to spell your expectations out because it doesn't sound like he is going to otherwise pick it up on his own, no matter how much you want him to. And it probably would be hugely beneficial for him to move out and live on his own, tbh. It's more important than saving up a larger nest egg imo.
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Chayalle
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Thu, Nov 17 2022, 6:17 pm
OP if your child needs to be told most things to help out and is not aware on his/her own, then he/she will most likely be the same in marriage. This can be very frustrating to a spouse (unless spouse comes with similar limitations or other limitations that will make him/her accepting of these.)
I had the same feeling as whitewash, but forgive me if I'm wrong. If these are his/her limitations, what help can he/she get now to help move him/her forward and stretch those limitations? It can make a big difference to his/her eventual marriage to get help beforehand.
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