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Forum
-> Computers, Phones and Devices
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amother
Molasses
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 Fri, Nov 18 2022, 3:06 pm
| amother Black wrote: | Maybe the Chassidish Rabbanim said all internet is assur.
I'm not Chassidish.
I'm 100% sure the other 4 said unfiltered is assur. |
You're 100% wrong. I heard them say internet is assur, period.
Filtered internet is an illusion (see the other thread).
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amother
Grape
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Fri, Nov 18 2022, 3:15 pm
I don't have a problem with parental controls and other safety features. Not just because of p0rn, there are other things I might want to block out for health and safety. But I see absolutely no reason why it has to be some frum company. The general controls available work perfectly well and don't come with the same concerns mentioned with some of the frum filters.
Also, that's a very strange take on fighting the yetzer hara. You do what you need to do to avoid getting sucked into something best avoided. If you stop keeping your most tempting sweets in the house in order to make it easier to keep to your diet, does that somehow make it less of a legitimate diet? It's not somehow cheating in your personal struggles to put up hardcore boundaries rather than simply relying on willpower. In fact, chazal strongly advise against relying on willpower alone.
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PinkFridge
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Fri, Nov 18 2022, 3:53 pm
| amother OP wrote: | I guess it depends on what you think is a tool. In my mind something like a filter perpetuates the weakness. I can see why people might want to block a certain app or social media site.
. |
And I feel that it doesn't. It helps build strength, like any safeguards people take.
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socialbutterfly
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Fri, Nov 18 2022, 4:09 pm
| amother Alyssum wrote: | | This. A filter sounds like the modesty police from Iran or something. |
It shouldn’t sound like that because it’s not a policy. Why judge people who choose to put up boundaries for THEMSELVES?
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singleagain
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Fri, Nov 18 2022, 4:14 pm
| socialbutterfly wrote: | | It shouldn’t sound like that because it’s not a policy. Why judge people who choose to put up boundaries for THEMSELVES? |
If someone wants to use it themselves, good for them.... If someone even wants to give someone else the password that's fine. But you should not be made to do it or else your kids won't be accepted in school. That is not good
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amother
Hibiscus
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Fri, Nov 18 2022, 4:19 pm
| amother Molasses wrote: | You're 100% wrong. I heard them say internet is assur, period.
Filtered internet is an illusion (see the other thread). |
This has changed over the years. At the very first internet asifa, ten or so years ago, yes, the speakers did say internet is assur and one speaker said anyone who uses the internet is giving up his olam haba.
Well, as clearly that would be consigning most of the frum world to a certain location, this declaration somehow never took off, and over the years it changed to unfiltered internet. I think when the concept of the frum world and the internet came to the attention of certain leaders/askanim/rabbanim initially a) they didn't really understand how revolutionary it was and how the whole world was changing so that it would quickly become necessary for daily life b) they thought it could be dealt with the "get rid of your TV" campaign that was successfully waged in the 80s and 90s.
Only, things didn't end up working out that way. Remember how the Agudah put out very definite statements they do not condone computer usage and they would never have an online presence or website? No official emails, they had a fax machine. They stuck to that for years and at some point they were forced to bow to the inevitable.
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amother
Ginger
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Sat, Nov 19 2022, 11:28 am
Ideally, your filter would be located between your ears. If you're a person with poor self control, you may have to take artificial measures. I've had unfiltered access for at least 25 years and never been exposed to images I couldn't show my kids.
The internet is a wonderful, powerful, tool. It's responsible for spreading Torah and saving time in so many ways.
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shabbatiscoming
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Sat, Nov 19 2022, 2:46 pm
| amother Black wrote: | | How about because gedolim said we should filter our devices, and as Yidden we listen to our gedolim. We don't need to "feel" that we need it. | Its not good to follow blindly and not have a clue about what you are following and that you are following just because you are following.
To me that not Judaism. When did judaism become this thing that we follow what rabbanim say blindly?
(And now, here come the tomatoes, Im sure)
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shabbatiscoming
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Sat, Nov 19 2022, 2:48 pm
| amother Black wrote: | | Not all, but many. Many Gedolim who are no longer with us (but their word remains) and many Rabbanim who are still with us. Did your Rav (call it a gadol, a rav, a rabbi, whatever makes you happy) tell you it's ok to go unfiltered? Fine. I haven't heard of those yet. Too many said it's not ok. |
Lets get this straight here: Not every frum jew would even think that this was a question for their rav. And would decide for themselves if they want or need a filter. Their rav wouldnt fit into the equation.
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shabbatiscoming
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Sat, Nov 19 2022, 2:51 pm
| amother Black wrote: | It's horribly tragic that there are Rabbanim that misuse their status.
That doesn't make all Rabbanim illegitimate.
No one said gedolim are in place of G-d Himself.
Daas Torah means that they are disseminating Hashem's Word.
Good Shabbos! | This is such a dangerous thing to say. NO rabbi out there is giving over hashem's word. They do not have nevua and do not know exactly what hashem wants.
Please, this is not judaism at all.
Rabbanim are HUMAN BEINGS. They are very learned individuals. But they are not givning over hashems words. They dont live in shamayim. They are here on earth.
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socialbutterfly
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Sat, Nov 19 2022, 5:42 pm
| singleagain wrote: | | If someone wants to use it themselves, good for them.... If someone even wants to give someone else the password that's fine. But you should not be made to do it or else your kids won't be accepted in school. That is not good |
I happen to be very pro sending children to a school that reflects the values at home. If the school has x rule and the parents who want to send there don’t want to follow x rule, find a new school.
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Chickensoupprof
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Sat, Nov 19 2022, 5:47 pm
| socialbutterfly wrote: | | I happen to be very pro sending children to a school that reflects the values at home. If the school has x rule and the parents who want to send there don’t want to follow x rule, find a new school. |
Also schools should follow federal laws about privacy if they don't follow it they are violating the law. We also don't let people rob our houses...
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socialbutterfly
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Sat, Nov 19 2022, 5:57 pm
| Chickensoupprof wrote: | | Also schools should follow federal laws about privacy if they don't follow it they are violating the law. We also don't let people rob our houses... |
What’s the discussion about privacy?
If a school asks you to have a filter on a computer prior to enrolling, what privacy is being violated?
I don’t think the school is monitoring your internet searches…
And if they are, I think that’s ridiculous and wouldn’t send my children there.
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DrMom
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Sat, Nov 19 2022, 6:04 pm
| amother Black wrote: | | Not all, but many. Many Gedolim who are no longer with us (but their word remains) and many Rabbanim who are still with us. Did your Rav (call it a gadol, a rav, a rabbi, whatever makes you happy) tell you it's ok to go unfiltered? Fine. I haven't heard of those yet. Too many said it's not ok. |
Why should the default be that I have to use a filter, and I need permission from my rav not to use one?
Also, I don't follow these gedolim you cite.
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amother
Black
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Sat, Nov 19 2022, 6:38 pm
| DrMom wrote: | Why should the default be that I have to use a filter, and I need permission from my rav not to use one?
Also, I don't follow these gedolim you cite. |
I didn't cite any names lol
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singleagain
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Sat, Nov 19 2022, 6:40 pm
| socialbutterfly wrote: | | I happen to be very pro sending children to a school that reflects the values at home. If the school has x rule and the parents who want to send there don’t want to follow x rule, find a new school. |
Yes, but it seems like in some communities every school demands that you should have this specific filter and that I think is going a little bit far
Disclaimer all I know is what I read here and honestly I'm not so into this topic that I have read every single thread about it
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amother
Black
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Sat, Nov 19 2022, 6:45 pm
| singleagain wrote: | | Yes, but it seems like in some communities every school demands that you should have this specific filter and that I think is going a little bit far |
I'm clearly very pro-filter, and I live in a community that's also.
Nobody ever told me I need to have a specific filter.
My filter is completely controlled by myself/my husband.
We decide "how filtered" our devices should be.
And we send our children to schools that "require" a filter.
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amother
Black
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Sat, Nov 19 2022, 6:51 pm
| shabbatiscoming wrote: | Its not good to follow blindly and not have a clue about what you are following and that you are following just because you are following.
To me that not Judaism. When did Judaism become this thing that we follow what rabbanim say blindly? |
Actually, yes, that is what Judaism is about.
Obviously not every Rav.
But we each have our own Rabbanim, and we are supposed to follow them, whether we understand or not.
Like I mentioned numerous times, if your Rav says filters are unnecessary, kol hakavod.
I haven't heard of those. But I don't know that I don't know every psak out there.
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amother
Bluebonnet
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Sat, Nov 19 2022, 6:51 pm
| socialbutterfly wrote: | | I happen to be very pro sending children to a school that reflects the values at home. If the school has x rule and the parents who want to send there don’t want to follow x rule, find a new school. |
Sorry, but no. The schools have hijacked our lives and implemented so many rules, that they literally choke people and create negative views on yiddishkeit. Sure, they should have values in place - but a range of values (within defined boundaries). If they can only cater to one type of person, who follows the overload of rules to the letter, then that's a bad thing, not a good thing.
Yiddishkeit and schools used to be about a mix of community members coming together to learn and educate themselves. It was never about being the police of society, nor was it about enforcing one set of values and pushing away others. But now that it was it has become. They see themselves as the enforcer of yiddishkeit and decide who is or isn't worthy to be part of their circles. They judge people based on external presentations, and deem people as not good enough to mingle with. And all that is based on self-imposed, arbitrary rules with little connection to actual yiddishkeit- with no margins or breathing room. Sounds more like a KGB than a community group. Sounds more like mafia tactics than Torah-related actions.
A defined, very specific set of values should come from the home. That is the parents' job, not the schools' job. And if your set of values can only hold up in an environment that follows those very exact values to the letter, then there's something wrong with your values or the way you give it over to your children.
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socialbutterfly
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Sat, Nov 19 2022, 7:12 pm
| amother Bluebonnet wrote: | Sorry, but no. The schools have hijacked our lives and implemented so many rules, that they literally choke people and create negative views on yiddishkeit. Sure, they should have values in place - but a range of values (within defined boundaries). If they can only cater to one type of person, who follows the overload of rules to the letter, then that's a bad thing, not a good thing.
Yiddishkeit and schools used to be about a mix of community members coming together to learn and educate themselves. It was never about being the police of society, nor was it about enforcing one set of values and pushing away others. But now that it was it has become. They see themselves as the enforcer of yiddishkeit and decide who is or isn't worthy to be part of their circles. They judge people based on external presentations, and deem people as not good enough to mingle with. And all that is based on self-imposed, arbitrary rules with little connection to actual yiddishkeit- with no margins or breathing room. Sounds more like a KGB than a community group. Sounds more like mafia tactics than Torah-related actions.
A defined, very specific set of values should come from the home. That is the parents' job, not the schools' job. And if your set of values can only hold up in an environment that follows those very exact values to the letter, then there's something wrong with your values or the way you give it over to your children. |
I cannot relate. My parents sent us to schools that were in line with their values (JPF). There was none of this filtering business or sign that you don’t own a television. Most communities have an option like this.
It bothers me when people want to send to yeshivish/bais yaakov schools and then get upset with the rules that they have. (Disclaimer: I am not referring to rules that are completely outlandish/80% of the families do not keep and the school continues on with blinders on). In todays yeshivish circles it is not outlandish to have a filter, therefore if a school would like to implement that, go ahead. No one is forcing you to go.
Regarding the last paragraph, of course every home should have its own set of rules, but it’s understandable that schools can have there’s as well. Do you think it’s unreasonable for a bais Yaakov high school to require it’s students to wear skirts outside of school? What do you mean?! That should be up to the parents! Schools shouldn’t have a standard for the people choosing to come. That’s ridiculous.
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