S/o Why need a filter?

amother

Bluebonnet

Sat, Nov 19 2022, 7:23 pm

socialbutterfly wrote:

I cannot relate. My parents sent us to schools that were in line with their values (JPF). There was none of this filtering business or sign that you don’t own a television. Most communities have an option like this.

It bothers me when people want to send to yeshivish/bais yaakov schools and then get upset with the rules that they have. (Disclaimer: I am not referring to rules that are completely outlandish/80% of the families do not keep and the school continues on with blinders on). In todays yeshivish circles it is not outlandish to have a filter, therefore if a school would like to implement that, go ahead. No one is forcing you to go.

Regarding the last paragraph, of course every home should have its own set of rules, but it’s understandable that schools can have there’s as well. Do you think it’s unreasonable for a bais Yaakov high school to require it’s students to wear skirts outside of school? What do you mean?! That should be up to the parents! Schools shouldn’t have a standard for the people choosing to come. That’s ridiculous.

No offense, but if you never were in any of these schools, then you have no idea of the minutiae that are outlined in such schools values. These values aren't about such high-level stuff as skirts, they're down to the nitty gritty of every aspect of your lives.

Take filters for examples - instead of specifying that children should only have access to filtered devices, they specify what filter, with what company to sign up with, what things the PARENTS may or may not have access to, approve whether PARENTS (particularly mothers) should have any sort of (filtered) access to the internet at all, etc.. Now imagine such rules in every aspect of your lives, starting from the top going all the way down to the size of the hairbows your child can wear.

socialbutterfly

Sat, Nov 19 2022, 7:37 pm

amother Bluebonnet wrote:

First, I have involvement in such schools.(No longer JPF 👋)

Second, the example of skirts was extreme to bring out a point.

Third, I agree with what you’re saying 100%. I was responding to a poster upset that schools ask for filtered internet. That really isn’t a problem. Correct, the over involvement you describe is too much. No argument there.

But again, why send to such a school? Is it the only option in-line with your hashkafah?

amother

Bluebonnet

Sat, Nov 19 2022, 7:42 pm

socialbutterfly wrote:

Unfortunately, yes. The schools in such communities are on a race to see who can brand themselves the holiest. So each one tries to outdo the other by tacking on more and more ridiculous rules. It has gotten so out of hand that it's either drop your entire hashkafah or deal with these kind of tactics. It is no wonder that parents resort to underhand tactics to lead their own lives.

amother

Heather

Sat, Nov 19 2022, 7:45 pm

amother Black wrote:

I'm sorry that bothers you. But that's not the way Yiddishkeit works.
Yidden listen to daas Torah.
You want to tell me your Rav told you you don't need any filter? Fine.
But speaking about gedolim the way you just did and deciding on your own that you don't want to listen is not ok.

socialbutterfly

Sat, Nov 19 2022, 7:47 pm

amother Bluebonnet wrote:

I commiserate. It’s definitely out of hand.

amother

Amaryllis

Sat, Nov 19 2022, 7:48 pm

socialbutterfly wrote:

I happen to be very pro sending children to a school that reflects the values at home. If the school has x rule and the parents who want to send there don’t want to follow x rule, find a new school.

I don’t think there exists a school that exactly mirrors all of my policies and values. I have to choose a good enough match, and also take into account things like educational methodologies and how they mesh with each child’s learning styles, location, friends, etc.

That being said, my school doesn’t have a specific policy on filters, just that you should have one.

Personally I would want a filter anyhow. I’m not perfect, I’ve mistyped website addresses, clicked on ads accidentally, and followed Google links that were misleading. I’m glad I had a filter there to keep me from seeing things I’d regret.

I also am glad that curious teens with impulsivity that matches their curiosity can’t just make irreversible decisions.

What I can’t understand is why Rabbonim and schools don’t mandate ad blockers. Many otherwise fine sites are rendered problematic because of automatically placed ads.

amother

Heather

Sat, Nov 19 2022, 7:48 pm

amother Black wrote:

Gedolim know way more then you're giving them credit for.
Besides all the stories they're privy too, someone immersed in Torah is zoche to a tremendous siyatta dishmaya, which is why ppl turn to Gedolim for advice and brochos.

This was intended to reinforce what the above poster is saying, in response to the previous poster...

amother

Black

Sat, Nov 19 2022, 7:50 pm

amother Heather wrote:

And that's why I thanked you!
The lack of respect for daas Torah around here is terrible.
"What do they know" and all that... Can't Believe It

socialbutterfly

Sat, Nov 19 2022, 7:50 pm

amother Amaryllis wrote:

I agree with every word.

When I say choose a school with the same values, of course there will be slight variations, but I think it’s important for parents to uphold school rules for the sake of their children.

People who can’t fathom a rule for filtered internet at home don’t seem like such a great fit for schools that are more towards the right/yeshivish.

keeptrying

Sat, Nov 19 2022, 7:57 pm

amother OP wrote:

I get that there are unsavory websites out there. But why is everyone under the assumption that without a filter they will become addicted to [filth]? Why do men especially feel they are so weak they can’t be trusted unless they have a filter? Why not just have parental controls to restrict certain levels of access and then just don’t access smut? Guess what. I don’t have a filter and I don’t have [filth] pop up on my devices. If a website pops up it’s because I wasn’t careful but then I figured it out and learned the signs of what not to do. so I don’t click on suspicious text messages or emails or pop ups or click bait. The taboo of having a smart phone without a filter seems to make the allure of [filth] stronger for those that are susceptible and for those that aren’t, it’s like a virtue signal of holiness. Just the whole level of censorship in some circles seems counterproductive on multiple levels.

I listen to Rabbinim because they know best. Rabbanim say to put a filter on…

PinkFridge

Sat, Nov 19 2022, 8:12 pm

amother Black wrote:

I'm clearly very pro-filter, and I live in a community that's also.
Nobody ever told me I need to have a specific filter.
My filter is completely controlled by myself/my husband.
We decide "how filtered" our devices should be.
And we send our children to schools that "require" a filter.

Our school had - maybe still has, but I'm out of that parasha - internet asifos where there were no "you must have xyz" but "this is a policy we believe is healthy for you. Do it however you want, there are community resources to help you."

PinkFridge

Sat, Nov 19 2022, 8:14 pm

amother Black wrote:

Actually, yes, that is what Judaism is about.
Obviously not every Rav.
But we each have our own Rabbanim, and we are supposed to follow them, whether we understand or not.
Like I mentioned numerous times, if your Rav says filters are unnecessary, kol hakavod.
I haven't heard of those. But I don't know that I don't know every psak out there.

I think that there's a difference between a shaila one directly asks a rav, and communal recommendations that are disseminated. I remember that with the big internet asifa, the impression was, gedolim will be speaking and based on the general principles, local rabbanim will guide their communities.

So if one asks one's personal rav a shaila (vs. an eitza) then yes, I suppose one is bound by exactly what the rav says.

PinkFridge

Sat, Nov 19 2022, 8:17 pm

amother Heather wrote:

Yes, yes, yes. I have heard rabbanim relate hair-raising stories, and stress that this is just the tip of the iceberg. Rabbanim, or at least more than some people think, are not naive.

amother

Molasses

Sat, Nov 19 2022, 8:19 pm

amother Hibiscus wrote:

This has changed over the years. At the very first internet asifa, ten or so years ago, yes, the speakers did say internet is assur and one speaker said anyone who uses the internet is giving up his olam haba.
Well, as clearly that would be consigning most of the frum world to a certain location, this declaration somehow never took off, and over the years it changed to unfiltered internet. I think when the concept of the frum world and the internet came to the attention of certain leaders/askanim/rabbanim initially a) they didn't really understand how revolutionary it was and how the whole world was changing so that it would quickly become necessary for daily life b) they thought it could be dealt with the "get rid of your TV" campaign that was successfully waged in the 80s and 90s.

Only, things didn't end up working out that way. Remember how the Agudah put out very definite statements they do not condone computer usage and they would never have an online presence or website? No official emails, they had a fax machine. They stuck to that for years and at some point they were forced to bow to the inevitable.

Have you heard - yourself - from the Rabbanin I mentioned that they have changed their stance? Or are people simply not quoting them (on purpose)? I have read articles really recently quoting the names above that said that internet is assur, period. And they only acknowledge that it would be ok if you REALLY REALLY need it for work and there is no other option but even so they were hesitant.

I think what happened is that it just never took off. I remember being the one of the only ones in my neighborhood who took it really seriously. I stopped after I kept seeing all those Amazon boxes at my neighbors doors and they supposedly didn't have internet... people have all kinds of creative reasons for having access even though they don't officially have....

There are still some real and true families who still don't have internet and I do admire them tremendously. They are the ones listening to daas Torah, not me.

As for filters.... I started another thread on this topic explaining that filters don't work anyway, necessarily, plus there are a lot of real reasons why some people don't get filters. It's really not so simple as saying that "daas Torah" says that filtered internet is kosher.

amother

Hibiscus

Sat, Nov 19 2022, 8:29 pm

amother Molasses wrote:

I don't know why you are responding to me in such an aggressive tone. I'm simply giving the history.
I'm assuming the reasons that it stopped being put out there so strongly is because it's clear the barn door is open and there's no point in proclaiming something as assur if almost everyone is going to be accessing it anyway, as you admit to yourself.
And while I didn't attend the asifas last summer everyone who did reported that the emphasis was on filtered internet. BTW, one of the speakers I referred to prior was there as well, and he did not mention anything as being assur or giving up olam haba, my understanding (based on reports I read in the frum magazines as well as posters reporting here) is that he encouraged filters just like the rest of the speakers at the event. So that's one person who may not officially have said it is allowed but he isn't any longer saying it is completely assur, or that people are giving up their olam haba if they do access it. BTW, this speaker is one of the rabbanim you mentioned in your list.

shabbatiscoming

Sun, Nov 20 2022, 2:49 am

amother Black wrote:

I was never taught such a thing. I was actually taught that I should use my sechel and figure things out and never follow someone blindly. Have you never heard of shabtai tzvi?

Also, about rabbanim saying to use a filter or not, my rav does not talk about those things. There has yet to be such lectures in my community about filters.

PinkFridge

Sun, Nov 20 2022, 8:22 am

amother Molasses wrote:

10+ years ago I heard a chareidi (ok, this is the US; let's say very yeshivish) RY tell his OOT community that he'd love to assur internet but he knows people won't listen so please take what your schools and community askanim are recommending seriously.