Is a school that accepts everyone the answer?

amother

NeonBlue

Fri, Nov 25 2022, 5:49 am

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

Reb Chaim זצוק"ל was a child a long time ago. There was no media no TV no internet. Impossible to compare today and those times.

This is true. I think every school (even secular) need to update their technology rules. There is no reason for children to be allowed to bring phones or tablets to school under any circumstance. If they use them at home, that’s one thing. But I can’t understand why a school would allow it.

Rappel

Fri, Nov 25 2022, 5:49 am

Quote:

Now my son is in a class with a kid where the father learned in yeshiva for many years, the parents dress "the part", but the family has no problem going to a mixed water park on vacation. Try explaining that to an 8 year old kid.

(And I'm not trying to sugarcoat my childhood, there were still things that were hard. But when my parents are asked how they raised such "good" children OOT 30 years ago, they answer it was much easier back then!)

That sounds complex.

My go-to answers are:
1. I'm responsible for my own actions. What other people do is not my business.
2. The Torah is always right. "I wouldn't do that, because according to our kav, XYZ sources direct us to do this. But maybe they have a different kav that does say it's okay, or a specific reason that they have to do it this way." And then move the conversation onto learning the sources and halacha, rather than other people's behaviour

amother

Gray

Fri, Nov 25 2022, 5:54 am

Simple1 wrote:

No it won't work because too many parents want the elite or exclusive factor. It is a problem, which can only be solved if we can somehow change their minds.

I used to think so too but in reality I find it not to be the case. Times have changed unfortunately. My mom was able to go to public school because all kids were raised with minimum standards. Not today.When your young teen's friends are on social media & use foul language you know you have a problem.

Disclaimer I don't live in or near lakewood ( why are almost all recent threads re lakewood??)

amother

Gray

Fri, Nov 25 2022, 5:58 am

amother NeonBlue wrote:

This. How is it ok in the secular world to allow young kids to have iPhone etc & be on social media? I shudder when I think about it. How will these kids grow up functional?? Even adults struggle. It should be considered parental neglect.

amother

Clear

Fri, Nov 25 2022, 6:01 am

amother NeonBlue wrote:

+1000. People don’t realize the difference between now and the 1990s when they grew up. My sister in law lives in one of the dense areas in Lakewood. A good chunk of her 7th graders class lives in the neighborhood. One mother is more permissive and allowed her son access to her smartphone. By the time the mothers realized it, every boy in the neighborhood from that class had been shown p0rn on several occasions. One boy told his parents which is how it blew up. My sister in law was devastated. Normal mainstream (maybe slightly balebatish) Cheder.

keym

Fri, Nov 25 2022, 6:16 am

I just want to say that I think there's a bit of "rose glasses" when it comes to OOT.
I have close family in administration in schools OOT. There's the constant push/pull from the parents. More right, more left. And the school is walking between the raindrops trying to satisfy everyone because each faction is threatening to pull and start a new school.
The thing is that there are not enough people/resources to support multiple schools so they are stuck together coexisting and tge parents complaining more dress code rules, less rules, enforce them, ignore them.

Lakewood essentially is the same. There was the big community school (Bais Faiga). And the "unhappy parents" who managed enough people for the break-offs Bnos Yaakov (more academics) Bais Rivka Rochel (more yeshivish) Bais Rochel (Chassidishe) Bais Rivka (less yeshivish) Tiferes (smaller class sizes, more warmth). This is around 30 years ago.
Then Lakewood started growing massively. So more schools opened. And some of them marketed themselves as "exactly like Bais Faiga just smaller".

Look, I agree the Lakewood school system is hard and stressful. But I don't think revisionist history, nasty to Lakewood, and yelling that everything is perfect OOT helps anything.

Ducking

amother

Blue

Fri, Nov 25 2022, 6:28 am

amother Stoneblue wrote:

It never works. Every time a school opens that accepts everyone it falls apart. Think Ateres tzipora, Bais yaakov western Monmouth county, bnos Rivka, Bais yaakov ocean county. The more modern dysfunctional girls end up going and influencing everyone else. The regular good girls pull out and then the school falls apart.

Well, duh. If you open such a school in an environment like others, of course it goes this way. All the 'good' kids don't go running to such schools. Change has to come from the 'good' schools, and then we'll be able institute change elsewhere.

amother

Blue

Fri, Nov 25 2022, 6:29 am

Simple1 wrote:

No it won't work because too many parents want the elite or exclusive factor. It is a problem, which can only be solved if we can somehow change their minds.

100% right. The problem is the parents. This is what parents want and demand. They want exclusivity and elitism and honestly - they don't want to do much parenting. They want the schools to give over their particular chinuch path, so they pressure the schools to stay within their personal black lines.

amother

Blue

Fri, Nov 25 2022, 6:31 am

amother Opal wrote:

Quote:

I went to a school like that and only gained, and I’m a big proponent of the positive. However, and this is major, times are very very different now. I think it’s not so simple anymore, even OOT.

I grew up OOT and loved it and I'm raising my kids OOT and it's not so simple.
When I went to a community school growing up the differences between my family and other families was much more glaring and easier for me to understand as a kid. ie - the mother doesn't cover her hair, the girls wear pants...
Now my son is in a class with a kid where the father learned in yeshiva for many years, the parents dress "the part", but the family has no problem going to a mixed water park on vacation. Try explaining that to an 8 year old kid.

(And I'm not trying to sugarcoat my childhood, there were still things that were hard. But when my parents are asked how they raised such "good" children OOT 30 years ago, they answer it was much easier back then!)

This is only happening BECAUSE of our system. When everyone needs to fit into a box to be able to get their children into schools, they'll put on the uniform and pretend to go along with it externally. If we'd just allow people to be, and have a much more accepting environment, this game of pretend wouldn't exist much.

amother

Blue

Fri, Nov 25 2022, 6:37 am

amother Gray wrote:

If we going with the idea of extreme examples, then yeah I agree with you. The idea of being a more inclusive school doesn't mean that everyone is to be accepted. It means that instead of having such rigid black lines, we should allow some grey. Talking about more inclusive doesn't mean that a chassidishe school has to accept people with TVs in their homes, or ones who go without socks (for example). It just means that there is a beautiful range of hashkafahs within a set guidelines.

Do we really believe that this is what Hashem wants from us? Is creating such rigid blocks where only carbon copies can interact with carbon copies, and we keep all other yidden away? Our communities have become so much more polarized since we began behaving this way, and the consequences are the opposite of Achdus & Ahavas Yisroel.

amother

Gray

Fri, Nov 25 2022, 7:16 am

amother Blue wrote:

So you also want exclusivity, just on your terms. We each have our red lines we don't want to cross. Why should the no socks kid be left out? Same thing.

amother

Gray

Fri, Nov 25 2022, 7:29 am

amother Blue wrote:

Well yes, why wouldn't you chose a school that will make chinuch easier & up the chances of a better outcome? It's not elitist to want the best chinuch for your child.

amother

Clear

Fri, Nov 25 2022, 8:31 am

amother Tulip wrote:

The Torah talks about surrounding yourself with good neighbors and friends. It’s not really great to expose your kids to bad things. The only way to keep our bad influences is to be selective and exclusive.

Some posters here would consider the Rambam to be snobby and the source of all problems:

דרך ברייתו של אדם--להיות נמשך בדעותיו ובמעשיו אחר ריעיו וחבריו, ונוהג במנהג אנשי מדינתו. לפיכך צריך אדם להתחבר לצדיקים ולישב אצל החכמים תמיד, כדי שילמוד ממעשיהם; ויתרחק מן הרשעים ההולכים בחושך, כדי שלא ילמוד ממעשיהם. הוא ששלמה אומר, "הולך את חכמים, יחכם; ורועה כסילים, ירוע" (משלי יג,כ). ואומר, "אשרי האיש . . ." (תהילים א,א).

ב וכן אם היה במדינה שמנהגותיה רעים, ואין אנשיה הולכים בדרך ישרה--ילך למקום שאנשיו צדיקים, ונוהגים בדרך טובים. ואם היו כל המדינות שהוא יודען ושומע שמועתן נוהגים בדרך לא טובה, כמו זמננו זה, או שאינו יכול לילך למדינה שמנהגותיה טובים, מפני הגייסות או מפני החולי--יישב לבדו יחידי, כעניין שנאמר "יישב בדד ויידום" (איכה ג,כח). ואם היו רעים וחטאים, שאין מניחין אותו לישב במדינה אלא אם כן נתערב עימהן ונוהג במנהגן הרע--ייצא למערות ולחווחים ולמדברות ואל ינהיג עצמו בדרך חטאים, כעניין שנאמר "מי ייתנני במדבר . . ." (ירמיהו ט,א)

Where is his Ahavas Yisrael? Aren’t we supposed to be tolerant and accepting of each other’s differences?

Someone once asked the chazon ish why we aren’t listening to the Rambam and running away to the caves and desserts. The chazon ish answered that our yeshivos and schools fill that role today.

If even those are allowed to absorb all the influences outside what would the chazon ish say?

amother

Opal

Fri, Nov 25 2022, 8:31 am

Quote:

But that's not happening. This is OOT where there is absolutely no pressure to conform. If these parents lived in Lakewood they would probably not get into a "top" school, or they would change their behaviors so they could get into one of those schools. My point is that it makes it that much harder OOT because there's this live and let live attitude that people think allows them to do whatever they want because it will have no affect on them

amother

Blue

Fri, Nov 25 2022, 8:45 am

amother Gray wrote:

So you also want exclusivity, just on your terms. We each have our red lines we don't want to cross. Why should the no socks kid be left out? Same thing.

I'm not sure if you're purposely misconstruing my point, or if you just didn't understand. I don't want anything on my terms, or your terms, for that matter. I want there to be an hashkafic range within our schools and society, so that all of our brothers and sisters can find their place.

To demo an example. If school A has a range of 1-5, and school B has a range of 6-10, and school has a range of 11-15, we are inclusive of everyone who falls into ranges 1-15. What we have right now is that school A accepts only 1s, and school B accepts only 7, and school C accepts only 12. So 1, 7 and 12 have their places in our society, and everyone else must follow suit by being a 1, 7 and 12. The other options are either leaving our communities, or pretend and just put up a front.

And putting up a front is what has become commonplace.

amother

Blue

Fri, Nov 25 2022, 8:48 am

amother Tulip wrote:

Not to the degree that your yiddishkeit can only survive within one rigid form of yiddishkeit. If your values can't hold up to exposure to different hashkafas (within reason of course), then there's something wrong with either how its being taught or the values themselves.

If our path only survives if we lock ourselves into ghettoes - away from even our own brothers and sisters, then there's something inherently wrong with that path. The Torah and it's values hold up in all generations, even within tempered exposure to different Torah paths and ideals.

amother

Arcticblue

Fri, Nov 25 2022, 10:04 am

Here’s my hot take:
The problem is boards. I grew up in Passaic, I went to YKP, they accepted everyone. It was a great school, diverse and it really worked. Rabbi Heshy Hirth was in charge. He didn’t really care much what other people had to say. The school had their hadhkafah and that was it. There was a school uniform. If girls were singing secular songs often a teacher would ask them to stop. Obviously the teachers couldn’t see everything but they were present enough that nothing got truly out of hand. It was a wonderful, solid, Torah-dik school without having absurd rules about the specific length of the mother’s sheitel.
With a board, there are way too many “cooks in the kitchen”, the politics is insane, there’s no cohesive vision for the school.