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Age Appropriate Consequence Age 6/7
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mom24b




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 28 2022, 7:13 pm
I just read that the tantrums seem to be around tasks she is asked to perform AND that she recently switched to a large school. To me it is extremely logical, reasonable and even probable that the demands on her throughout the day are overwhelming and taxing her and is therefore acting out when asked to do anything more. This is completely understandable and in my opinion her needs/limits need to be considered and respected. I encourage you to look at her daily schedule and see where you can minimize demands placed on her. Can you look at the requests she seems to be fighting you on and decide which you can forego on for now (for example say something like I know you have had such a long day how about you put your clothes in the hamper snd I’ll put away your crafts for you ….) . The tasks you feel are absolutely necessary can you find ways of building in support to make it easier (like having hamper right where she changes) or if it’s practicing piano giving her a choice of doing it after she has time to read and relax or getting it over with right away and then having rest of evening to relax or doing the chore with something enjoyable that will make it less taxing…. I suspect if you can do this and really limit extra demands placed on her (temporarily) letting her know that you see how hard she’s working and understand she must be tired after such a long day and will therefore not require her to do x/y/z until her body adjusts (of after Chanukah… and add on one small thing at a time) I suspect most of her behaviors will diminish.
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amother
Melon


 

Post Mon, Nov 28 2022, 7:23 pm
mom24b wrote:
This is SO hard! I feel for you, your daughter and your other family members. This is not an easy thing to deal with and the explosions always seem to happen at the worst times!! I totally get you. You wish you could find the magic trick to restore the peace and tranquility in your home and see your sweet, happy, kind, loving ,cute, adorable daughter at her best! Luckily she enjoys the exact things that are often recommended to help one calm themselves! Arts and crafts, reading, listening to cds are some of THE BEST methods to self-regulate and calm oneself. It is precisely at times of her upset and distress these things should be offered to help her calm (along with validation-recognizing her feelings). It would sound something like this “ I see how upset you are that it’s not your turn for the CD player yet. It’s really frustrating. You were hoping you can have it and it’s very upsetting that you can’t. Why don’t you get a book to read or do some beading….” I’m sorry you can’t have the CD player. I know it upsetting to you, we can find something else you can do. “ (I used CD player as example yiu can use anything she’s upset about….). She most likely will refuse the book or crafts and scream more if she’s too angry and dysregulated. That would be normal and understandable. If she’s Extremely upset she needs your calm , love and support to help her calm. NOT a consequence! I fear the fact that you are attempting to deal with her tantrums/defiance with consequences is actually increasing her behaviors. Her tantrums/defiance is her way of communicating her distress. She needs to feel understood and supported. When you are upset who do you turn to? Most likely the person you feel understands you best and always knows how to make you feel better. If your upset and your husband tells you to stay away from him until your in a better mood , I’m guessing you would be angrier at him. The same is true for your daughter. Telling her she has to go away when she is upset is no different then your spouse telling you to go away from him until your in a good mood again. The same way you need to be understood and supported when your upset so does your daughter.
If the poster who suggests that tantrums are a form of “manipulation “ is correct , then ask yourself why does my daughter feel a need to be manipulative? Ppl don’t manipulate unless they are desperate got something and have no other alternative but to be manipulative to get their need met. I’m not by any means agreeing that the tantrums are a form of manipulation. I am only saying EVEN IF that was the case it would be because the child feels they must be manipulative in order for them to be seen and their needs met (but I’m not saying that is the case). I am sure you want your daughter to feel loved, supported, safe, cared for and trust her needs will be met. I know it’s extremely difficult to deal with tantrums. It grates on the nerves, trust me I know. If you can shift your thoughts from judgement to understanding the tantrums will become much easier to deal with and tolerate. I’m sure you have tried to discuss the issue with her but what was your goal in those discussions? To identify the cause and stop the behaviors or to understand and support your child? You will not be successful if your true intentions are to stop the behaviors. The behaviors will automatically stop when your child’s needs are met and they feel safe and supported in their times of distress. It sounds from your post like this is fairly new behaviors she is displaying which is extremely concerning. There is MOST definitely a reason. Is there anything different going on at home? Have you moved recently, had a baby, any change occurred with a sibling or even a friend? Regardless of wether you are able to pinpoint the cause the cure is most definitely to give her extra support and security (especially during her tantrums, hold her , sit with her, offer her means of soothing)not consequences. I’m not saying you should give her what she wants I’m saying you should be loving, understanding and soothing, Supporting her through her distress of not getting what she wants and helping her find ways to soothe herself, a cup of hot cocoa while reading, some craft supplies, a cd she loves…. Please please do not remove these things from her and most DEFINITELY NEVER utilize food as a means of reward/punishment that is extremely damaging and can cause long term psychological damage including eating disorders. There is no reason to give a consequence to a child that is upset . I fear doing so will only increase the very behaviors you are trying to stop. The best thing you can do is be supportive and understanding and start to see your child’s behaviors as a need for safety, security, love and support. When you start to see your child differently, you will see a different child!

Ps ABA methods do not teach a person how to regulate and calm themselves . It may seemingly improve the targeted behavior but if the need behind the behavior isn’t met the need will display in other behaviors.

You are more than welcome to DM me. I have studied this for over 2 decades and I’m happy to assist you.

Most important is to be kind and patient to both yourself and your daughter especially in times of her upset. This is no magic trick either it takes a lot of love, focus and patience but will be worth it in the long run . For both of you!


You really make some good points.

Please please break it up in paragraphs, it’s almost impossible to read.
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mom24b




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 28 2022, 7:35 pm
Best Bubby with much respect to you for your years in child rearing , all the mental health issues that are being dx now are in the children (and/or) grandchildren that were raised by your generation. This post is not in any way to diminish or attack your parenting choices. I truly believe that you and those in your generation did the best you could with the information you had. It is precisely for this reason that many of us are searching and learning for better ways. We have experienced and know the damage we suffered not having the love, security, and acceptance we desperately needed when we were kids.
You will notice most responses speak about understanding, compassion, and connection. Through our growth and healing we have taken the journey to reach a place of understanding, compassion snd acceptance for our parents and maintain good relationships with them. We know they did the best they could. We are working on ourselves to heal the parts that weren’t facilitated effectively so we could live richer healthier lives as can our kids. Many of us know it is purposeless to discuss the challenges we have with our parents . We know sharing our challenges with our parents would most likely be dismissed or perhaps even mocked.
I definitely believe you have a wonderful relationship with your children and grandchildren but it does not mean they don’t have struggles. They most likely choose not to share those struggles with you. Or alternatively they may also be married to spouses with similar upbringing and therefore are not aware that they are lacking emotionally and missing the richness of emotions one can experience. This is by no means to attack your beliefs , it is to bring awareness to those in the trenches that even if such methods “seem to work” the cost is far greater than dealing with tantrums and can have life long psychological impact on the child. Best Bubby you yoursekf must agree that even in ABA teach to look for the antecedent (the cause) of the behavior and build in supports or minimize the cause. We don’t ”punish” and withhold sun snd water from a plant if it’s not growing. On the contrary we give it more sun and water ensuring it has the appropriate nutrients and environment necessary for it to be able to grow.


Last edited by mom24b on Mon, Nov 28 2022, 11:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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mom24b




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 28 2022, 7:40 pm
I’m so sorry. I know punctuation is not my strong point. I will try to edit shortly
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amother
IndianRed


 

Post Mon, Nov 28 2022, 10:12 pm
mom24b wrote:
Best Bubby with much respect to you for your years in child rearing all the mental health issues that are being dx now are in the children (and/or) grandchildren that were raised by your generation. This post is not in any way to diminish or attack your parenting choices. I truly believe that you and those in your generation did the best you could with the information you had. It is precisely for this reason that many of us are searching and learning for better ways because we have experienced and know the damage we suffered not having the love, security, and acceptance we desperately needed when we were kids. You will notice most responses speak about understanding, compassion, and connection. Therefore many of us have taken the journey to reach a place of understanding, compassion snd acceptance for our parents and maintain good relationships with them. We know they did the best they could and are working on ourselves to heal the parts that weren’t facilitated effectively so we could live richer healthier lives as can our kids. Many of us know it is purposeless to discuss the challenges we have with our parents as they would most likely be dismissed or perhaps even mocked. I definitely believe you have a wonderful relationship with your children and grandchildren but it does not mean they don’t have struggles They choose not to share or alternatively they may also be married to spouses with similar upbringing and therefore do not have challenges as both maybe emotionally cutoff but they would still be lacking secure attachment and emotional health. This is by no means to attack your beliefs it is just to bring awareness to those in the trenches that even if such methods “seem to work” the cost is far greater than dealing with tantrums and can have life long psychological impact on the child. Best Bubby you yoursekf must agree that even in ABA teach to look for the antecedent (the cause) of the behavior and build in supports or minimize the cause. We don’t ”punish” and withhold sun snd water from a plant if it’s not growing. On the contrary we give it more sun and water ensuring it has the appropriate nutrients and environment necessary for it to be able to grow.

Thanks for saying this. It's everything I wanted to say just nicer..
Rabbi yy Jacobson says.. This generation is a healing generation. What used to work, doesn't work anymore.
We need to accept, learn, and heal.
Our generation needs compassion, love and understanding. This is our tafkid.
Antone can go and fight this tooth and nail, but we will still live on and ultimately this is the derech our generation needs.
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amother
Melon


 

Post Mon, Nov 28 2022, 10:24 pm
amother IndianRed wrote:
Thanks for saying this. It's everything I wanted to say just nicer..
Rabbi yy Jacobson says.. This generation is a healing generation. What used to work, doesn't work anymore.
We need to accept, learn, and heal.
Our generation needs compassion, love and understanding. This is our tafkid.
Antone can go and fight this tooth and nail, but we will still live on and ultimately this is the derech our generation needs.


Agreed.

Also the analogy of your husband distancing himself from you when you are upset is excellent.

I’ve seen so much bad advice on this thread, from bribing, charts, ignoring tantrums, forcing discipline or mom checking out emotionally.

People are forgetting that our kids are regular people. Not some lab rats to practice psychology on.
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amother
Midnight


 

Post Mon, Nov 28 2022, 10:33 pm
I’m wondering if she might be a little young for piano lessons. I took lessons at 8 and was pretty good, but didn’t like practicing. I think it might be better to start later, when you’re more committed and have more discipline. I know this isn’t the answer to the problem, but if she’s overwhelmed it will be one less thing.
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amother
DarkOrange


 

Post Mon, Nov 28 2022, 10:33 pm
Mom24b, really amazing posts! Thank you!!
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mom24b




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 28 2022, 11:01 pm
Dark orange - thank you I appreciate that. It comes straight from my heart. I poured and continue to invest every ounce of my heart into learning, growing and healing in order to be the best parent, person and Eved HaShem I can be. Even after 2 decades of intense work in the field there’s still so much that I have yet to master. The work never ends. I find our kids push us to learn (often more about ourselves then them) grow and heal. I often say I’m raising myself by raising my kids.
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amother
DarkOrange


 

Post Tue, Nov 29 2022, 1:06 am
mom24b wrote:
Dark orange - thank you I appreciate that. It comes straight from my heart. I poured and continue to invest every ounce of my heart into learning, growing and healing in order to be the best parent, person and Eved HaShem I can be. Even after 2 decades of intense work in the field there’s still so much that I have yet to master. The work never ends. I find our kids push us to learn (often more about ourselves then them) grow and heal. I often say I’m raising myself by raising my kids.

You are a true inspiration!
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amother
Seablue


 

Post Wed, Nov 30 2022, 12:50 pm
amother IndianRed wrote:
Thanks for saying this. It's everything I wanted to say just nicer..
Rabbi yy Jacobson says.. This generation is a healing generation. What used to work, doesn't work anymore.
We need to accept, learn, and heal.
Our generation needs compassion, love and understanding. This is our tafkid.
Antone can go and fight this tooth and nail, but we will still live on and ultimately this is the derech our generation needs.


I’ve heard that this is a new type of generation and needs to be dealt with differently, more because of the changes in technology than anything else.
But
What makes this a generation of healing? And what was so bad about the 60s,70s, and 80s? I happen to think these were great times for families and for children. People were at the peak of health, wealth, etc. There was not much lacking. And people still had those good values, like a good work ethic, ambition, and drive due to what their parents and grandparents went through. They appreciated work and family. Why is it popular to say that people were raised harshly or had all kinds of issues? I do not see that at all. There was no war, poverty, illness, etc. and people were not too sensitive , victim minded , fearful or lacking ambition like they are now. Can somebody please explain it. If anything there was less trauma then than ever before.

I’m a millennial and I feel that our parent’s generation was actually the healthier one by far. The direction this “healing generation” is going doesn’t look good. I would love to understand.
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amother
IndianRed


 

Post Wed, Nov 30 2022, 2:01 pm
amother Seablue wrote:
I’ve heard that this is a new type of generation and needs to be dealt with differently, more because of the changes in technology than anything else.
But
What makes this a generation of healing? And what was so bad about the 60s,70s, and 80s? I happen to think these were great times for families and for children. People were at the peak of health, wealth, etc. There was not much lacking. And people still had those good values, like a good work ethic, ambition, and drive due to what their parents and grandparents went through. They appreciated work and family. Why is it popular to say that people were raised harshly or had all kinds of issues? I do not see that at all. There was no war, poverty, illness, etc. and people were not too sensitive , victim minded , fearful or lacking ambition like they are now. Can somebody please explain it. If anything there was less trauma then than ever before.

I’m a millennial and I feel that our parent’s generation was actually the healthier one by far. The direction this “healing generation” is going doesn’t look good. I would love to understand.

I have 2 seconds to explain but I'll write what I understood.
Those were a generation after the holocaust and people were just looking for ways to hold on. To get through. To get by. Their traumas were not dealt with and it unfortunately seeped into their children. Everything was swept under the rug and many many many many people got hurt emotionally and unfortunately physically.
Our generation in what he explains is in the tafkid of healing. Things are all coming out. And children need to be dealt with sensitivity.
If I have the time I will look for the shiur he gave. It was phenomenal and again I'm a huge fan of rabbi YY so everyone can take what they like and leave the rest of that works for them.
Just because something/someone looks great, or performed great - doesn't mean they feel great.
I think for that generation they did great with the tools they have.
We live in a diff time and have much better tools to cope VS survive.
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mom24b




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 30 2022, 2:53 pm
Indian Red is 1,0000% accurate this is not something that can be disputed it has scientifically been proven!
Ppl think that Hitler only killed one generation but he is STILL killing generations from being raised in emotionally unhealthy environments that were caused by the war. My mother in law (who is a child of survivor) was woken up to her fathers screaming kids names out in mid of night as a child. She tried to ask her mother in the morning about it and was told “don’t say a word” so she lived in fear constantly being woken up by her parents shrieking - do you think a child can be emotionally healthy and raise their kids in an emotionally healthy environment growing up like that? Not having ANY relatives and when ask parents about it they are told not to ask. I can go on for hours about all the emotional trauma it has caused and is still causing and why we are into this “new age healing”. I was born in 75, some of my siblings were born in the 60s and some in the 80s. I guarantee you that you are EXTREMELY misguided in your perceptions of those years. Myself, my siblings and almost EVERY single person I know was born and brought up in those years suffer greatly from their childhood upbringing. That is why we seek therapy we refuse to allow our children to suffer like we did and recognize our own pain and therefore have embarked on this “new age healing”. What generation is it that you think is the ones pursuing therapy to heal??? I assure you it’s not the 5yr old kids being born today tgat are seeking therapy! The ones seeking therapy are those from the very generations you mistakenly believe were generations of bliss! There was no poverty in those years?!? Are you joking me?!? You must have lived in a very sheltered cocoon! Why do you think tomchei shabbos and the myriads of chessed organizations developed and grew exponentially in the 90s?!? It was because of the severe poverty! Did you not know and live through the recession in the late 80s early 90s, do you not know those born in the 60s had parents still recovering from the depression. There was no illness??? Taysachs was only discovered in the 80s. I watched my friends sister regress and die of taysachs at 3yrs in 1988 and why Dor Yeshorim was created in early 90s. My mother died of a devastating death from breast cancer my britger was only 5yrs old (as did 5 other women under the age of 50 in my community in 1996) I was told today she would have survived as medicine has advanced. I can refute every one of your beliefs, you are grossly misinformed. I don’t have the time now to go into detail to explain how and why every one of your beliefs are completely misinformed. But if you think logically you would realize those seeking therapy and healing are those born in the very generations you believe were healthiest!
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amother
Seablue


 

Post Wed, Nov 30 2022, 3:04 pm
mom24b wrote:
Indian Red is 1,0000% accurate this is not something that can be disputed it has scientifically been proven!
Ppl think that Hitler only killed one generation but he is STILL killing generations from being raised in emotionally unhealthy environments that were caused by the war. My mother in law (who is a child of survivor) was woken up to her fathers screaming kids names out in mid of night as a child. She tried to ask her mother in the morning about it and was told “don’t say a word” so she lived in fear constantly being woken up by her parents shrieking - do you think a child can be emotionally healthy and raise their kids in an emotionally healthy environment growing up like that? Not having ANY relatives and when ask parents about it they are told not to ask. I can go on for hours about all the emotional trauma it has caused and is still causing and why we are into this “new age healing”. I was born in 75, some of my siblings were both in the 60s and some in the 80/ and I guarantee you that you are EXTREMELY misguided in your perceptions of those years. Myself, my siblings and almost EVERY single person I know was born and brought up in those years and suffer to the point that we refuse to allow our children to suffer like this and recognize our own pain and therefore have embarked on the age of this “new age healing”. What generation is it that you think is the ones pursuing therapy to heal??? I assure you it’s not the 5yr old kids being born today tgat are seeking therapy! Tgr ones seeking therapy are those from the very generations you mistakenly believe were generations of bliss! There was no poverty in those years?!? Are you joking me?!? You must have lived in a very sheltered cocoon! Why do you think tomcheu shabbos and tge myriads of chessed organizations developed and grew exponentially in the 90s?!? It was because of the severe poverty (do you not know there was a recession in the late 80s early 90s, do you not know those born in the 60s had parents still recovering from the depression. There was no illness??? Taysachs was only discovered in the 80s. I watched my friends sister regress and die of taysachs at 3yrs in 1988 and why Dor Yeshorim was created in early 90s. My mother died of a devastating death from breast cancer my britger was only 5yrs old (as did 5 other women under the age of 50 in my community in 1996) I was told today she would have survived as medicine has advanced. I can refute every one of your beliefs, you are grossly misinformed. I don’t have the time now to go into detail to explain how and why every one of your beliefs are completely misinformed. But if you think logically you would realize those seeking therapy and healing are those born in the very generations you believe were healthiest!


Comparatively to previous generations, there was less illness, poverty. There will always be some illness , poverty , etc. Thanks Indian Red and mom24b for explaining all that. How do you explain it for the people who do not come from European Countries and come from nations that were not affected by the holocaust? They are also part of this Taphkid and have a similar derech that is cultural to this time.
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amother
Ultramarine


 

Post Wed, Nov 30 2022, 3:08 pm
Sea blue it sounds like you were privileged and grew up in a very insular, privileged environment that is completely out of touch with the reality of what most ppl faced in those decades. If you grew up wealthy (which I will assume you did, since you state it was times of richness which it was NOT for the average household) please recognize you were privileged. Privilege means out of the ordinary and not the norm, and therefore it is insensitive of you to make these statements that are completely ignorant and a complete slap in the face to the majority of us who experienced those years in a very different way.
Incidentally your post is in itself a symptom of exactly what many of your generation are working towards healing. Dismissing and denying ones emotions and needs are the very causality of being raised in those generations. Your statements are made either out or living a privileged life and your simply ignorant as to us “common folk” or you yourself are a victim of being emotionally stunted and are unaware of the plethora of emotions and needs you may have had to stifle and live in a dissociative state.
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amother
Seablue


 

Post Wed, Nov 30 2022, 3:17 pm
amother Ultramarine wrote:
Sea blue it sounds like you were privileged and grew up in a very insular, privileged environment that is completely out of touch with the reality of what most ppl faced in those decades. If you grew up wealthy (which I will assume you did, since you state it was times of richness which it was NOT for the average household) please recognize you were privileged. Privilege means out of the ordinary and not the norm, and therefore it is insensitive of you to make these statements that are completely ignorant and a complete slap in the face to the majority of us who experienced those years in a very different way.
Incidentally your post is in itself a symptom of exactly what many of your generation are working towards healing. Dismissing and denying ones emotions and needs are the very causality of being raised in those generations. Your statements are made either out or living a privileged life and your simply ignorant as to us “common folk” or you yourself are a victim of being emotionally stunted and are unaware of the plethora of emotions and needs you may have had to stifle and live in a dissociative state.


I’m truly sorry if I offended anyone. I did not grow up wealthy or even nearly wealthy. I may or may not have been privileged depending on your definition of it. And I don’t think those were specifically rich times, however, I think they were overall pretty good times comparatively to other times in history. They definitely weren’t the worst. This was not to say that there was no suffering during that time but there always is. It’s an interesting topic and thanks for all the explanation . It gave me something to think about.
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mom24b




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 30 2022, 3:18 pm
Sea Blue - those that did not suffer under the hands of Hitler snd were in America/Canada/England still lived in very challenging times. Many were drafted into the war for USA, you may think that only Meir Birnbaum, and Mike Tress were because there are books on them, but just as they were many other frum were drafted as well. They are just not as known . As you yourself point out there was a lot more death/illness, nobody was immune to the depression and this caused them to develop a “stiff upper lip” (my grandmothers expression to mean they had to be tough and stay strong and not allow themselves to feel the pain of losing loved ones as they had to continue their labor (often very physical) just to survive. To be clear I’m now referring to my grandmother generation who raised my father in this manner and with that mindset in the 40s - who raised myself and my siblings in the late 60/70/80s and are trying to heal through therapy from the effects our parents child rearing had on us ….

Last edited by mom24b on Wed, Nov 30 2022, 3:44 pm; edited 4 times in total
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amother
Melon


 

Post Wed, Nov 30 2022, 3:22 pm
amother Ultramarine wrote:
Sea blue it sounds like you were privileged and grew up in a very insular, privileged environment that is completely out of touch with the reality of what most ppl faced in those decades. If you grew up wealthy (which I will assume you did, since you state it was times of richness which it was NOT for the average household) please recognize you were privileged. Privilege means out of the ordinary and not the norm, and therefore it is insensitive of you to make these statements that are completely ignorant and a complete slap in the face to the majority of us who experienced those years in a very different way.
Incidentally your post is in itself a symptom of exactly what many of your generation are working towards healing. Dismissing and denying ones emotions and needs are the very causality of being raised in those generations. Your statements are made either out or living a privileged life and your simply ignorant as to us “common folk” or you yourself are a victim of being emotionally stunted and are unaware of the plethora of emotions and needs you may have had to stifle and live in a dissociative state.


This is exactly correct.
My parents from the 70’s are completely dissociated and are totally unable to look past the shell that has been formed around their emotions.

They are unable to see or understand the emotional suppression they raised us in.

I, in my thirties, am in therapy because my parents should have been.

But ask my mom and she’ll tell you there’s nothing wrong with her, therapy is for weak people and we are just being sensitive brats.

She doesn’t realize that her restlessness is depression, her loneliness is because of her inability to connect emotionally, and her marriage is stale because of underlying unspoken issues.
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mom24b




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 30 2022, 3:40 pm
“Melon”- 10000 thousand percent! I’m happy you are fortunate to have realized this and get help for yourself! At the same time I am sorry for you as I know the pain and suffering you must have encountered to bring you to this awareness and start you on your challenging and heroic journey to being healthy. Much love to you! It takes a tremendous amount of strength and courage. I am so proud of you for recognizing this instead of continuing the pattern.
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amother
Ultramarine


 

Post Wed, Nov 30 2022, 3:59 pm
Sea Blue- Perhaps in your question you can recognize the answer. Those of us who were raised in 70/80/90s are seeking therapy now as we are not physically taxed as we were in previous generations and are therefore able to turn inwards and heal mentally and emotionally so that we can be able to greet mashiach with a healthy mind, body, and soul. Do you know how many ppl don’t truly want mashiach? Do you know why? It’s because of a tremendous fear they have that they aren’t zocheh. This fear is instilled from faulty childhood upbringing that makes majority of us believe we are not good enough. This is the generation before mashiach. We need to heal and reconnect to our neshamos, to recognize our worth, to be able to greet mashiach.

Last edited by amother on Wed, Nov 30 2022, 4:31 pm; edited 3 times in total
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