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Ugh I feel so guilty- sleep training
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amother
Ebony


 

Post Tue, Jan 24 2023, 8:34 pm
amother Jade wrote:
I did not call anyone lazy and selfish.
I said that the act of using CIO instead of gentle methods because parents want a quick fix, is the lazy way out. This is not mom shaming.

Jade didn’t mom shame. The focus should be on the babies and what we can do to be the best mom for them. The truth that Jade is saying hurts. Instead of attacking the messenger take heed of her insightful message.
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amother
Plum


 

Post Tue, Jan 24 2023, 8:40 pm
amother Jade wrote:
But I did not respond like this to people who sleep train. It was a response to a specific post.
And I ignore the term mom shaming. It doesn't mean anything to me. I'm not falling for the trends of everything being offensive and mom shaming. People love to use this term to anything that they don't want to hear. It's a way of shutting someone up.


Not quite. It’s okay to state your opinion. It’s another thing to judge other people’s parenting when it’s not bad but just different than yours. Again, no one has brought evidence that would suggest sleep training causes any harm. At this point, the conversation is purely emotional. It hurts you to hear a baby cry, hence why you are very against sleep training. That’s very nice, but there’s nothing wrong with a caring mother sleep training her baby in a humane way where the baby’s needs are being met. This is coming from someone who isn’t “into” sleep training. It doesn’t sit well with me for my own emotional feelings. Not for any logical reason.
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amother
Jade


 

Post Tue, Jan 24 2023, 8:44 pm
amother Plum wrote:
Not quite. It’s okay to state your opinion. It’s another thing to judge other people’s parenting when it’s not bad but just different than yours. Again, no one has brought evidence that would suggest sleep training causes any harm. At this point, the conversation is purely emotional. It hurts you to hear a baby cry, hence why you are very against sleep training. That’s very nice, but there’s nothing wrong with a caring mother sleep training her baby in a humane way where the baby’s needs are being met. This is coming from someone who isn’t “into” sleep training. It doesn’t sit well with me for my own emotional feelings. Not for any logical reason.


But certain methods are bad.
We are talking here about a baby that went through birth trauma. It doesn't seem like many of you understand what birth trauma is and what it can do to a baby. And we're also talking here about a baby that really does not have terrible sleep patterns and does not cry at night. There's no reason to resort to CIO as a first option.
As I said upthread afew times, I'm not against sleep training. I'm against leaving a helpless human to CIO.
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amother
Plum


 

Post Tue, Jan 24 2023, 8:44 pm
amother Ebony wrote:
Jade didn’t mom shame. The focus should be on the babies and what we can do to be the best mom for them. The truth that Jade is saying hurts. Instead of attacking the messenger take heed of her insightful message.


Again, you’re speaking very much from the heart. We can so easily get carried away with our feelings. Especially when it comes to parenting.

It’s hard to see what you’re saying as the “truth” when there’s no significant proof of it being the truth.
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amother
Plum


 

Post Tue, Jan 24 2023, 8:45 pm
amother Jade wrote:
But we are talking here about a baby that went through birth trauma. It doesn't seem like many of you understand what birth trauma is and what it can do to a baby. And we're also talking here about a baby that really does not have terrible sleep patterns and does not cry at night. There's no reason to resort to CIO as a first option.
As I said upthread afew times, I'm not against sleep training. I'm against leaving a helpless human to CIO.


Thanks for the “hug” Jade! Really warms my heart.

I’m personally not speaking about birth trauma. Just sleep training for the average baby. If you have other circumstances, best to speak to a professional in the field 😊
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amother
Ebony


 

Post Tue, Jan 24 2023, 8:46 pm
amother Plum wrote:
Not quite. It’s okay to state your opinion. It’s another thing to judge other people’s parenting when it’s not bad but just different than yours. Again, no one has brought evidence that would suggest sleep training causes any harm. At this point, the conversation is purely emotional. It hurts you to hear a baby cry, hence why you are very against sleep training. That’s very nice, but there’s nothing wrong with a caring mother sleep training her baby in a humane way where the baby’s needs are being met. This is coming from someone who isn’t “into” sleep training. It doesn’t sit well with me for my own emotional feelings. Not for any logical reason.

Read the article posted by Dr. Laura Markham. Unfortunately it does cause harm. Educating moms to make the best choices may not be politically correct but is truly in their and their babies best interest.
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amother
Jade


 

Post Tue, Jan 24 2023, 8:47 pm
amother Plum wrote:
Thanks for the “hug” Jade! Really warms my heart.

I’m personally not speaking about birth trauma. Just sleep training for the average baby. If you have other circumstances, best to speak to a professional in the field 😊


You're being quite rude with your assumptions.
I didn't hug any posts. I don't do that ever.

And this thread is specifically about a baby that experienced birth trauma, if you read the OP.
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amother
Jade


 

Post Tue, Jan 24 2023, 8:48 pm
amother Plum wrote:
Again, you’re speaking very much from the heart. We can so easily get carried away with our feelings. Especially when it comes to parenting.

It’s hard to see what you’re saying as the “truth” when there’s no significant proof of it being the truth.


Hashem gave us jewish women the gift if binah yeseira. And if a mother is feelig guilty and uncomfortable with this method, and is questioning this method even after the pediatrician told her to go ahead with it, this is proof enough.
There are also countless studies of how detrimental CIO can be for a baby.
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amother
Plum


 

Post Tue, Jan 24 2023, 8:54 pm
amother Ebony wrote:
Read the article posted by Dr. Laura Markham. Unfortunately it does cause harm. Educating moms to make the best choices may not be politically correct but is truly in their and their babies best interest.


Read it. There’s are so many issues with her “evidence”

To quote:
It's hard to evaluate research in this area because there are so many other factors (many of which are arguably more important) in how babies develop. However, it is well-documented that sustained, uncomforted infant crying causes increased heart rate and blood pressure, reduced oxygen levels, elevated cerebral blood pressure, depleted energy reserves and oxygen, and cardiac stress. Cortisol, adrenalin and other stress hormones skyrocket, which disrupts the immune system and digestion. It's a reasonable guess that if this is repeated over time, these babies would build a slightly different brain, more prone to "fight, flight or freeze."

I don’t think people here are recommending extinction, where we let baby cry themself to sleep with no parental involvement. She brought no evidence that a parent coming in to comfort baby periodically will lead to harm. Cortisol levels rise when a baby is given a bath, meets new people, is overtired and for other various reasons. It’s not proof enough to write off sleep training. Should we stop bathing or little ones because they get stressed out for their first few baths?

Read “research” carefully. It’s not always as accurate as you think.
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mushkamothers




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 24 2023, 8:54 pm
amother Maple wrote:
She is not a child therapist and would be the first to tell you so. She is a parenting influencer and coach and has a masters in education.

And FWIW mental health professionals are not of one opinion on the matter.


Haha I'm dipping in and out of this thread but I was about to quote the previous post to say exactly this.

What I have done is lots and lots of research. Not just reading cribsheet by Emily Oster (which btw I am not a fan of her work and the science she cherry picks from). There are entire very valid, very legitimate, very honorable fields of study and research that will not see the day of light in academia. When we say that "there are no studies" does this mean that it's false until proven true by a researcher? That's not science, that's academia. Remember that a study has to be paid for and published by somebody.

Anecdotally, totally different topic, I did an elimination diet for a while that had hundreds of thousands of facebook reviews and support and finally enough money was pooled to make a "published study" and prove that it did indeed reduce inflammation etc. Isabella Wentz who is a thyroid doctor writes that she was prescribing and treating thyroid a certain way for TEN YEARS before the industry finally bothered to research and confirm her methods (and thyroid health is still a mess in mainstream medicine btw, it will take another 20 years for this info to seep down).

The reason there aren't studies about this is, for the record, is that it's hard to quantify and also some of it is unethical in a lab setting. Like letting babies cry without attending them is not considered ethical. Even if you read actual studies showing how cio or versions of it were beneficial, read the study. It can mean that babies slept more minutes per night on average or parents self-reported more sleep. This is no big deal, objectively. And also if you take into account their age, so a study done over a few weeks or months, yeah that baby was developmentally going to hit that ability regardless.

Then we have fields of research finally gaining more attention and traction like attachment (around since before 1950s) or trauma (also decades old). Gabor Mate has become popular for research he's done ages ago. All of neuroscience which is finally focusing (or at least spreading) information on what grows or stunts a baby's brain, backing things up like the Doman method which was "quack science" until now. Links I shared above about how the birth affects the baby (unrelated to sleep training but just illustrating how little known this info is).

A much larger and nuanced conversation has to be had, in general, about what exactly "mothers mental health" is - did you know it's actually intertwined with the baby's, they are one unit mentally and physiologically - and whether or not she "deserves to sleep at night" - or if the problem is society and going back to work at 6 weeks etc.

All of this doesn't matter in the face of what op is saying that "she has read research but it still doesn't feel right". Research or any information is not supposed to make decisions for you. You need to make your own decisions. And they should always be based first on your own gut or maternal instinct (something else that won't be formally studied but you can bet it really exists and we can in fact see altered brain patterns, cells of baby crossing placenta, etc in new mothers)

This is how you learn to tap into yourself, become the mother you are supposed to grow into, and get to know your baby. Not by having arguments on the internet. By looking at the baby in your arms and then closing your eyes and tuning out the noise and making decisions.

If you were on a deserted island, you bet you'd know how to keep that baby alive. It would just happen because at the end of the day we are mammals with instinct and hashem designed us to be able to care for our babies. (This is not overly simplistic, believe it or not. Indigenous cultures pretty much prove that and no, they're not all dying over there. Did you know there's an African country, I'd have to look it up, that has no C section rate at all because of how they treat their mothers. No infant or maternal death rate at all)

We are not the problem and our babies are not the problem. Societal constructs, opinions, infrastructure, expectations, judgment, noise etc around us is the problem when it gets in the way of our innate nurturing abilities.

So tune that out and ask yourself, what does your baby need from you and how can you support and empower yourself to provide that?
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amother
Plum


 

Post Tue, Jan 24 2023, 8:55 pm
amother Jade wrote:
You're being quite rude with your assumptions.
I didn't hug any posts. I don't do that ever.

And this thread is specifically about a baby that experienced birth trauma, if you read the OP.


You’re right, my apologies.
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amother
Plum


 

Post Tue, Jan 24 2023, 8:56 pm
amother Jade wrote:
Hashem gave us jewish women the gift if binah yeseira. And if a mother is feelig guilty and uncomfortable with this method, and is questioning this method even after the pediatrician told her to go ahead with it, this is proof enough.
There are also countless studies of how detrimental CIO can be for a baby.


I hear you Jade.

No one told OP to do something she wasn’t comfortable with.

You’re right binah yeseirah is real. It’s real for moms who sleep train too ☺️
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amother
Royalblue


 

Post Tue, Jan 24 2023, 8:57 pm
CN you try a gentle method? Look at Harvey karp or sleep lady method. It takes more time and effort but it’s gentle and caring. Sounds like your baby needs lots of cuddling and mommy time. Can you give extra daytime doses?
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amother
Daffodil


 

Post Tue, Jan 24 2023, 8:57 pm
Delete
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amother
Ebony


 

Post Tue, Jan 24 2023, 8:59 pm
amother Plum wrote:
Read it. There’s are so many issues with her “evidence”

To quote:
It's hard to evaluate research in this area because there are so many other factors (many of which are arguably more important) in how babies develop. However, it is well-documented that sustained, uncomforted infant crying causes increased heart rate and blood pressure, reduced oxygen levels, elevated cerebral blood pressure, depleted energy reserves and oxygen, and cardiac stress. Cortisol, adrenalin and other stress hormones skyrocket, which disrupts the immune system and digestion. It's a reasonable guess that if this is repeated over time, these babies would build a slightly different brain, more prone to "fight, flight or freeze."

I don’t think people here are recommending extinction, where we let baby cry themself to sleep with no parental involvement. She brought no evidence that a parent coming in to comfort baby periodically will lead to harm. Cortisol levels rise when a baby is given a bath, meets new people, is overtired and for other various reasons. It’s not proof enough to write off sleep training. Should we stop bathing or little ones because they get stressed out for their first few baths?

Read “research” carefully. It’s not always as accurate as you think.

The article is specifically in regards to utilizing the Ferber approach and cortisol elevation, not in regards to extinction.
There is a lot of research but this article is a quick synopsis and is very helpful.
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amother
Plum


 

Post Tue, Jan 24 2023, 9:01 pm
amother Ebony wrote:
The article is specifically in regards to utilizing the Ferber approach and cortisol elevation, not in regards to extinction.
There is a lot of research but this article is a quick synopsis and is very helpful.


That’s what the author makes you think. If you actually read it, she brings no proof that the pop in and pop out method (Ferber) does any harm. She talks around the subject, bringing in extreme cases and extinction method.
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amother
OP


 

Post Tue, Jan 24 2023, 9:03 pm
mushkamothers wrote:
Haha I'm dipping in and out of this thread but I was about to quote the previous post to say exactly this.

What I have done is lots and lots of research. Not just reading cribsheet by Emily Oster (which btw I am not a fan of her work and the science she cherry picks from). There are entire very valid, very legitimate, very honorable fields of study and research that will not see the day of light in academia. When we say that "there are no studies" does this mean that it's false until proven true by a researcher? That's not science, that's academia. Remember that a study has to be paid for and published by somebody.

Anecdotally, totally different topic, I did an elimination diet for a while that had hundreds of thousands of facebook reviews and support and finally enough money was pooled to make a "published study" and prove that it did indeed reduce inflammation etc. Isabella Wentz who is a thyroid doctor writes that she was prescribing and treating thyroid a certain way for TEN YEARS before the industry finally bothered to research and confirm her methods (and thyroid health is still a mess in mainstream medicine btw, it will take another 20 years for this info to seep down).

The reason there aren't studies about this is, for the record, is that it's hard to quantify and also some of it is unethical in a lab setting. Like letting babies cry without attending them is not considered ethical. Even if you read actual studies showing how cio or versions of it were beneficial, read the study. It can mean that babies slept more minutes per night on average or parents self-reported more sleep. This is no big deal, objectively. And also if you take into account their age, so a study done over a few weeks or months, yeah that baby was developmentally going to hit that ability regardless.

Then we have fields of research finally gaining more attention and traction like attachment (around since before 1950s) or trauma (also decades old). Gabor Mate has become popular for research he's done ages ago. All of neuroscience which is finally focusing (or at least spreading) information on what grows or stunts a baby's brain, backing things up like the Doman method which was "quack science" until now. Links I shared above about how the birth affects the baby (unrelated to sleep training but just illustrating how little known this info is).

A much larger and nuanced conversation has to be had, in general, about what exactly "mothers mental health" is - did you know it's actually intertwined with the baby's, they are one unit mentally and physiologically - and whether or not she "deserves to sleep at night" - or if the problem is society and going back to work at 6 weeks etc.

All of this doesn't matter in the face of what op is saying that "she has read research but it still doesn't feel right". Research or any information is not supposed to make decisions for you. You need to make your own decisions. And they should always be based first on your own gut or maternal instinct (something else that won't be formally studied but you can bet it really exists and we can in fact see altered brain patterns, cells of baby crossing placenta, etc in new mothers)

This is how you learn to tap into yourself, become the mother you are supposed to grow into, and get to know your baby. Not by having arguments on the internet. By looking at the baby in your arms and then closing your eyes and tuning out the noise and making decisions.

If you were on a deserted island, you bet you'd know how to keep that baby alive. It would just happen because at the end of the day we are mammals with instinct and hashem designed us to be able to care for our babies. (This is not overly simplistic, believe it or not. Indigenous cultures pretty much prove that and no, they're not all dying over there. Did you know there's an African country, I'd have to look it up, that has no C section rate at all because of how they treat their mothers. No infant or maternal death rate at all)

We are not the problem and our babies are not the problem. Societal constructs, opinions, infrastructure, expectations, judgment, noise etc around us is the problem when it gets in the way of our innate nurturing abilities.

So tune that out and ask yourself, what does your baby need from you and how can you support and empower yourself to provide that?

No offense, but why do I feel like I just got lectured as if I am 10?
Banging head
I don't agree with a lot of your points.
My instincts were screaming to take the baby and run by the bris. Also by every vaccine I give. When doing tummy time (especially in the beginning when he would scream bloodcurling cries and I couldnt distract him).
Doing research is a reasonable and responsible thing to do. I hate it how you just tried to reduce me into someone who sounds stupid, just so you could sound so knowledgable.
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amother
Plum


 

Post Tue, Jan 24 2023, 9:05 pm
amother OP wrote:
No offense, but why do I feel like I just got lectured as if I am 10?
Banging head
I don't agree with a lot of your points.
My instincts were screaming to take the baby and run by the bris. Also by every vaccine I give. When doing tummy time (especially in the beginning when he would scream bloodcurling cries and I couldnt distract him).
Doing research is a reasonable and responsible thing to do. I hate it how you just tried to reduce me into someone who sounds stupid, just so you could sound so knowledgable.


Great points OP. Couldn’t have written it better myself.

I wonder if we should stop doing all of the bolded because it’s uncomfortable for us as mothers.
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amother
Plum


 

Post Tue, Jan 24 2023, 9:06 pm
amother Daffodil wrote:
Delete


Daffodil your point was awesome! I’m sad you deleted it.
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amother
Daffodil


 

Post Tue, Jan 24 2023, 9:07 pm
amother Plum wrote:
Daffodil your point was awesome! I’m sad you deleted it.


Thank you but it was a mean way to say it - I don't want to contribute to the conflict on this thread. Other people have already said it in a nicer way.
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