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Ugh I feel so guilty- sleep training
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amother
Jade


 

Post Tue, Jan 24 2023, 10:17 pm
amother Plum wrote:
You’re misunderstanding me. I’m saying is that where it’s convenient for you to be okay with a baby in pain or discomfort (bris, tummy time etc) it’s okay, but when convenient for someone else (sleep training) it’s not okay. It’s just hypocritical, that’s all.

Some would argue that sleep training helped their children sleep better long term. Would that not qualify as a benefit?


Some would argue that spanking their children helped their children be well behaved long term. Would that not qualify as a benefit?

As I said, I'm not against sleep training. I'm against CIO as a first resort when no other options were tried and parents just want a quick fix.
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amother
Bergamot


 

Post Tue, Jan 24 2023, 10:18 pm
[quote="amother Sienna"]
amother Bergamot wrote:
OP,
I commend you or reaching out to get information. There have been many good points mentions. Ultimately gd gave you the intuition to do whats best for your baby.
I want to add one point. The torah tells us to do to others what we want to be done to us.
When you are in a bad mood, irritable, sick or uncomfortable how do you want your loved ones to respond to you? Do you want to be ignored, left alone? Or would you want someone comfort you?
You are an adult who could take care of yourself yet eveyone wants to be comforted when they are in a bad mood or sick.

Your baby is a full fledged human being with physical and emotional needs. And a very vulnerable one. Your baby cannot take care of its own needs.
Babys are wired for survival. They will stop crying after a few days of being ignored because they need to survive. In order to survive they need to have connection with their parents. Babies and kids will give up their needs in order to connect to caregiver even those that are neglecting them or those that are neglecting part of their needs. Being connected is their only way to survive.

Giving your baby 2 years of healthy attachment (which means meeting their physical and emotion needs) is the biggest gift you could give another human being entrusted in your care.

How do I know this? I grew up in a seamingly beautiful safe family. Yet my emotional and physical needs weren't taken care of. I suffer tremendously because of it.

If you want research about these topics listen to Gabor Mate or read The Myth of Normal.[/quote


OP- please take this with a grain of salt!! Yes- of course this is true. But, if you are otherwise meeting your child's needs, then the vast majority of scientific research does not indicate harm brought to a child from sleep training! My first child was a horrific sleeper and I was suffering tremendously due to the sleep deprivation- which in turn was impacting my marriage and my relationship with my child- not to mention my mental health. We spoke with doctors and ultimately a rav, who is known for his expertise in chinuch. The rav told us to buy the Ferber book! I was very opposed to sleep training at the time, but it was something we needed to do. And we all benefited from it. It isn't the right choice for everyone- but so many people sleep train their children and they turn out just fine! Your interactions with the child for the duration of his life have much more of an impact. I'm sorry the prior poster felt her needs weren't met- but by choosing to sleep train in a responsible way- if that is the correct decision for your family (and you are a loving and caring parent!)- does not mean your child will suffer tremendously for it!


I agree to many of the points you added. I don't think sleep training is a problem. The problem is ignoring a baby's needs. Of course if the OP lovingly sleep trains her baby the baby will do well.
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amother
Ebony


 

Post Tue, Jan 24 2023, 10:20 pm
amother OP wrote:
Thank you! Not sure why people think its normal...

Op, what are you doing now with your baby when he wakes up?
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amother
Plum


 

Post Tue, Jan 24 2023, 10:21 pm
amother Jade wrote:
Some would argue that spanking their children helped their children be well behaved long term. Would that not qualify as a benefit?

As I said, I'm not against sleep training. I'm against CIO as a first resort when no other options were tried and parents just want a quick fix.


Point taken although spanking and sleep training are very very different. Check the research 😉

Seems like we are on the same page. I’m playing devil’s advocate. I am not pro a baby crying himself to sleep. I believe every aspect of the situation be taken into account and that parents make an educated decision.
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amother
Jade


 

Post Tue, Jan 24 2023, 10:25 pm
amother Plum wrote:
Point taken although spanking and sleep training are very very different. Check the research 😉

Seems like we are on the same page. I’m playing devil’s advocate. I am not pro a baby crying himself to sleep. I believe every aspect of the situation be taken into account and that parents make an educated decision.


Spanking and sleep training are different.
Spanking and CIO are not very different. I specifically said CIO. I did not say sleep training.
I use the term CIO in all my posts as I specifically mean CIO, not sleep training in general.
Sleep training doesn't equal CIO.
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amother
Crocus


 

Post Tue, Jan 24 2023, 10:27 pm
Oy, some of the back and forth here is just Can't Believe It
Might be time to let some moms CIO too.... Tongue Out Tongue Out

Poor OP, one of my children was also like this-can I ask if your baby is still sleeping in your room or a separate room? After a year of having my baby act like a newborn, I switched her to her own room with a monitor and she started sleeping much better through the night BH. I nurse so it was easier to keep her in my room but I've always wondered if perhaps I should have moved her earlier because it was like she sensed me nearby and was constantly waking up from my presence.

And YES, I said a YEAR.
And I regret it.
So no tomatoes at me, y'all hear?
I've suffered enough already! LOL
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Sebastian




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 24 2023, 10:30 pm
amother OP wrote:
Thank you! Not sure why people think its normal...


From your original post I thought maybe he goes down at 7 and wakes up 3xs, the 3rd being 5 30. Thats hard but somewhat age appropriate.

Does he like being swaddled? Any way you can train him (first starting with naps maybe) to sleep on his own without rocking? I would do rhat before sleep training. I think sleep training a baby thats currently being rocked to sleep will be very jard on him.
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amother
Aconite


 

Post Wed, Jan 25 2023, 12:53 am
amother OP wrote:
I gave birth to my first baby this summer, hodo Hashem kitov.
I had a terrible, traumatizing, horrific birth. Before I gave birth, I was 5’1 and 100 pounds with my hair wet. I go on to have a 10 pound baby. After pushing for 3 1/2 hours, they had to use forceps and an episiotomy to get the baby out (shoulder was stuck). I ended up tearing 3 degree, lost a ton of blood and had to get a blood transfusion. My placenta had to be removed by a d and c because I lost concius after birth.
According to my doctor, the recovery was going to be worse then a c-section, and I think he was right.
My baby from the start was extremely colicky. The doctors would say that he was acting like this because of the birth trauma. He would scream for hours and hours. Me and my husband tried everything, but to no avail. Now, the baby is much better bH. However, he is still a crazy sleeper. He only goes to sleep after being rocked for an hour. He wakes up at least three times nightly (he drinks three sips of milk and then falls back asleep).
We are at our wits ends. He is almost 7 months and I feel like I still have a newborn. Is it horrible to sleep train? I am leaning towards the Ferber method. Does anyone have anything positive to say about it? Or negative 🙈. Thank you.


I'm so sorry about what you went through!
From what you're describing, your baby isn't hungry the three times he wakes up to take a few sips- he just doesn't know how to fall asleep on his own. Sleep training is just teaching a baby to fall asleep on their own without the aid of rocking/feeding/holding, etc. or anything else that can't stay continuous the whole night
I'm going to try to explain how this works but disclaimer that I'm not an expert or a scientist, and this is what I've understood and I might use the wrong terms. You can totally look this up online as well. When we sleep, we actually go through sleep 'cycles' and partially 'wake up' numerous times in middle of the night when a cycle ends. When you partially wake up, if the environment is one where you can fall back asleep, you just slip into the next sleep cycle without realizing. So, for example, if someone were to pick you up in the middle of the night and put you on the floor and turn the light on, you may not wake up right away, but you're likely to wake up the next time you complete a cycle, because your body is not used to putting itself to sleep on the floor with the light on.
When a baby does not know how to fall asleep on its own and has to be rocked or fed to sleep, when they partially awake they'll wake up all the way because the rocking or feeding that got them to sleep has stopped and now they can't slip seamlessly into the next cycle.
There are gentle ways to teach this important skill where your baby does not have to 'cry it out' or whatever. 7 months is definitely old enough to learn how to fall asleep on his own and old enough to get a 12 hour night, 7 pm to 7 am or something like that.
I'd also definitely recommend moving him out of your room if you can.
From my experience, if you can gently help a baby learn to fall asleep on his own at the beginning of the night, the middle of the night will resolve itself. And if you stay consistent, it shouldn't take more than 3 days to see results, a week at the most.
Hatzlacha!

(I didn't read through all the responses but you probably got a lot about how awful it is to sleep train... I clearly disagree Smile )
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dena613




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jan 25 2023, 9:43 am
OP, I'm impressed that you what to do the best for your baby.

My babies all coslept until I couldn't take it (but some continued longer because I couldn't take getting them to sleep on their own!!), And even then when they'd wake up, I'd take them out and bring them back to my bed to nurse and go back to sleep... So they really weren't sleep trained.

First things first, it is totally normal for a 7mo to wake up a few times, eat, and go back to sleep. Absolutely normal.

Some may call this CIO. I don't think so, but I don't know.
If you'd like to try to train falling asleep in a crib, I'd suggest nap time first (when you are less overtired and overwrought). You can feed baby, rock baby NOT to sleep, just to sleepY, and then place in crib. If baby cries, I'd leave for a minute and say I'm coming right back, but if baby couldn't handle it, I'd come back and sit next to the crib. If baby continues to cry, I'd hold hand and talk reassuringly.
Once baby is used to (after a week or so) falling asleep in crib with hand held, I'd try to wean off of hand and see if it makes baby cry. (If Baby cries more than a few min, they aren't ready)
Once baby can do that for a while, I would move my chair to doorway for a few days etc etc

Natura progression without crying.

I don't have a solution for eating in the night, because I think that is a basic need.
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dena613




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jan 25 2023, 9:46 am
Sebastian wrote:
Op baby wake up 3xs after 12 is NOT age appropriate at all. Poor you and poor baby.


I have absolutely had that.
Even with babies who were much older.
It's still normal, if the baby can suck a little and fall back asleep
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amother
Magnolia


 

Post Wed, Jan 25 2023, 10:16 am
dena613 wrote:
OP, I'm impressed that you what to do the best for your baby.


Don't all mothers lol?
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amother
Blue


 

Post Wed, Jan 25 2023, 3:46 pm
I didn't read the responses, but have you ever heard of the book "12 hours by 12 weeks"? It's VERY gentle sleep training. It's a loving approach and it takes some time but it has great healthy tips. No "cry it out for hours" type.
Also, there are sleep trainers out there. I wonder if you would benefit from them. I personally heard stories of people who used sleep trainers and they were out hundreds of dollars and it didn't help. I wonder if you can reach out to one and ask if she can provide a guarantee or money back.
Wishing you hatzlacha and a refuah shelaimah on your birth. Sounds really really hard.
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amother
Blue


 

Post Wed, Jan 25 2023, 3:49 pm
I also forgot to mention one more thing- when my babies wake up at night, I always first try to give them their pacifier and rock them when theyre still whimpering, before they're screaming their head off. I found they often fell back asleep. It could be your baby isnt hungry (since he only takes a few sips) but is just waking up at random without needing to eat and needs some help falling back asleep.
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amother
Ebony


 

Post Wed, Jan 25 2023, 4:38 pm
amother Blue wrote:
I didn't read the responses, but have you ever heard of the book "12 hours by 12 weeks"? It's VERY gentle sleep training. It's a loving approach and it takes some time but it has great healthy tips. No "cry it out for hours" type.
Also, there are sleep trainers out there. I wonder if you would benefit from them. I personally heard stories of people who used sleep trainers and they were out hundreds of dollars and it didn't help. I wonder if you can reach out to one and ask if she can provide a guarantee or money back.
Wishing you hatzlacha and a refuah shelaimah on your birth. Sounds really really hard.

12 hours by 12 weeks is an awful book. It’s not written with the current medical advice and is so outdated.
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amother
Turquoise


 

Post Wed, Jan 25 2023, 4:50 pm
amother Ebony wrote:
12 hours by 12 weeks is an awful book. It’s not in sync with current medical advice and is so outdated.
Please don’t follow that book.

What is your basis for discounting ppls good advice on this thread, have you even read these books which are so terrible according to you?
You’ve literally been criticising every bit of advice that ppl have been giving without giving any advice of your own.
You clearly never suffered from sever sleep deprivation if you are talking like this.
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amother
Ebony


 

Post Wed, Jan 25 2023, 10:28 pm
amother Turquoise wrote:
What is your basis for discounting ppls good advice on this thread, have you even read these books which are so terrible according to you?
You’ve literally been criticising every bit of advice that ppl have been giving without giving any advice of your own.
You clearly never suffered from sever sleep deprivation if you are talking like this.

I have suffered from severe sleep deprivation and bh have a lots of littles and older kids as well. I did a lot of research on this topic and am trying to be helpful so that moms can avoid common pitfalls that can leave lasting damage unfortunately or at the very least cause suffering to a baby in the here and now.
There are so many gentle sleep training methods that we don’t need to resort to cruel and neglectful methods.

Unfortunately in our frum society it takes a long time for the newest research to become commonplace. Education is key to moms making better choices for their babies.

Ferber, CIO, 12 hours by 12 weeks, are all very damaging methods. A caring mom would want to know to avoid these methods. They are all outdated, old school and really bad advice. They each have a bit of a different twist and we can break it down if someone wishes. What they all have in common is that they aren’t good for baby.

My goal isn’t to put anyone down it’s just to avoid babies from having unnecessary suffering .
I hope your baby thrives and you get a lot of sleep. Very Happy
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amother
Plum


 

Post Wed, Jan 25 2023, 10:36 pm
amother Ebony wrote:
I have suffered from severe sleep deprivation and bh have a lots of littles and older kids as well. I did a lot of research on this topic and am trying to be helpful so that moms can avoid common pitfalls that can leave lasting damage unfortunately or at the very least cause suffering to a baby in the here and now.
There are so many gentle sleep training methods that we don’t need to resort to cruel and neglectful methods.

Unfortunately in our frum society it takes a long time for the newest research to become commonplace. Education is key to moms making better choices for their babies.

Ferber, CIO, 12 hours by 12 weeks, are all very damaging methods. A caring mom would want to know to avoid these methods. They are all outdated, old school and really bad advice. They each have a bit of a different twist and we can break it down if someone wishes. What they all have in common is that they aren’t good for baby.

My goal isn’t to put anyone down it’s just to avoid babies from having unnecessary suffering .
I hope your baby thrives and you get a lot of sleep. Very Happy


Evidence anyone? Evidence?

I think you’d have a lot more people hearing you out if you’d back your opinion.
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amother
Ebony


 

Post Wed, Jan 25 2023, 10:40 pm
amother Plum wrote:
Evidence anyone? Evidence?

I think you’d have a lot more people hearing you out if you’d back your opinion.

Plum, what’s your goal in posting on this thread? Something to think about….

There is so much research out there if you wished to delve into the subject. Good luck!
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amother
Plum


 

Post Wed, Jan 25 2023, 10:42 pm
amother Ebony wrote:
Plum, what’s your goal in posting on this thread? Something to think about….

There is so much research out there if you wished to delve into the subject. Good luck!


My goal is the same as yours.

I’ve delved. I like to be an informed parent BH. Haven’t found anything significant or properly researched. Can you please share? It would really help my understanding.
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amother
Ebony


 

Post Wed, Jan 25 2023, 10:47 pm
amother Plum wrote:
My goal is the same as yours.

I’ve delved. I like to be an informed parent BH. Haven’t found anything significant or properly researched. Can you please share? It would really help my understanding.


I’m hesitant to post on this thread any specific studies but feel free to peruse and delve into the subject. A cursory search should give you a lot of information.
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