Double Take Pesach Version. Thoughts?

keym

Sat, Apr 08 2023, 7:25 pm

Any thoughts?

This is one of the first Double Takes where I actually felt both sides were wrong.

Tzivya (imo) is way too enmeshed with her son. Expects too much and doesn't think of him, his wife and kids as their own entity, just expecting them to be there for her.

Nechami does not come across as a sympathetic person. Very self-involved.

What are your thoughts.

amother

Teal

Sat, Apr 08 2023, 8:29 pm

I thought Nechami was the main one making problems. Whether right or wrong, a stable arrangement has been in effect that her daughter did not ask her to get involved in. Sure it would be nice to have all her kids together, and maybe it was reasonable to ask since she doesn't know about the new son-in-law, but once she heard the response, she should accept it and butt out and not incite her daughter or make problems for her where none existed.

DustyDiamonds

Sat, Apr 08 2023, 8:37 pm

Perhaps Tzivia is too enmeshed with her son.

But the way our holidays work, her son leading the meals makes a life changing difference! I feel for her, and would’ve been sad if Nechami had convinced them to go to her for the sedarim!

amother

DarkOrange

Sat, Apr 08 2023, 10:05 pm

keym wrote:

Imo, Nechami was more in the wrong. Her desire to have all of her family at once doesnt even come close to Tzivya needing a male presence to lead a Seder.

Tzivya went through an awful lot. It shouldnt be thrown in her face on Pesach, no less. That's the time when we should reach out instead and do whatever we can to make it a Simchas Yom Tov. It looks like the young couple is handling the situation in an admirable mature manner. Nechami, OTOH, is handling it in a selfish manner and trying to rock the boat with comments to her daughter.

She already has a beautiful seder table with four of her five married children. She should be happy she can share one son who will get to brighten a troubled women's seder.!

amother

Aconite

Sat, Apr 08 2023, 10:38 pm

I was irked by her need to have "all of her kids " together. She doesn't realize how lucky she is. People have real tzaros life. She had a wonderful life with a bunch of happily married kids. Why can't she look past herself to see that some people have really painful lives and deserve our consideration.

amother

Yellow

Sat, Apr 08 2023, 11:49 pm

I am tzivia's son....(eta, I am the female version)
I actually stayed home this year!!
They are both wrong. Very wrong. The young couple needs to decide what is right for them and they are so enmeshed they dont even realize they are entitled to their own opinion.
I feel bad for everybody involved.
I wonder if Tzivia's need for a specific image contributed to her ex leaving.

groisamomma

Sun, Apr 09 2023, 12:03 am

Nechami was immature, regardless of how enmeshed Tzivia is with her son. My sympathy lies with the single girls sitting at a seder without a father. The least Nechami could do is give them their brother. If this story is true (big if) then she needs to grow up and not stir the pot so her picture-perfect family can be together for her self-gratification. She obviously never had real problems in her life.

amother

Valerian

Sun, Apr 09 2023, 1:02 am

Tzviya is enmeshed and needs to grow up and learn how to deal with life on her own. It has been 5 years and she can't figure out how to order matzah and cover the counter tops? Or get a metal frame sukkah and build it? Or hire someone to build one? Teenagers do it all the time...
You can have a Yom tov without a male. Women can lead a seder, do everything needed... shua is not her ex husband's replacement.

But at the same time- Nechami is in the wrong. While Tziviya should learn how to cope, that is a plan for the future and you cant force change quickly Faige and Shua should start months in advance prepping her that they won't be there for sukkos, here's what has to be done, help find someone to build a sukkah if for some reason a few women are too weak to do it...( my husband has a bad back. I build the metal frame and tarp sukkah in an afternoon with just my tiny 2nd grader's help and we only need a neighbor to help get the schach up...).

Nechami wants an image- all siblings together. She is so stuck on "her needs" she can't look at someone else's situation. Has she had no struggles in her life? She is so possessive over her daughter. "When can I have my turn?" Like she is 3 and fighting over a doll. She lives near her daughter- why can't her daughter come back midway to see the siblings? Shabbos Hagadol? If there is a will, there is a way.

amother

DarkCyan

Sun, Apr 09 2023, 6:55 am

I’m maybe biased here as my in law child has a single parent. But my kids split yom tov and give air time to both of us. We have a cordial relationship though and share with each other like adults. I don’t have other married kids yet, so I don’t have that dynamic, but neither member of the couple would give up spending time with their parent(s) sometime over yom tov.

amother

Bottlebrush

Sat, Apr 15 2023, 7:27 pm

I read it this shabbos. This is a minor detail but it irks me how the OTD ppl are portrayed in articles as one day they said "can't live a lie" and skipped off... It usually doesn't happen that way... Involves long painful pricess and if the wife didn't see any of it coming then she didn't have much of a relationship with her husband ...

Ok as to the story itself I think both parents are wrong. This is the couples decision. Noone else's. Full stop. You don't own your couples. They get to decide what works for them and that's it. Such stories normalize the unhealthy enmeshment that sadly is way too common.

amother

Papaya

Sat, Apr 15 2023, 8:03 pm

I sympathize with the single mom but the point you're all missing is - he went to help her from after.rosh chodesh. That is too much. He should he able to arrive the day of bedikas chalets. The mother and her teenagers should manage the cleaning Kashering cooking etc and he should arrive as a guest with just very minimal prep work left. She isn't a mother of a few babies- teenage girls usually are off school from rosh cjodesh as well- she can and should manage the advance work. That the dil has to take off 2 extra weeks from work is ridiculous. Otherwise yes the son belongs with his mother and the other mother should appreciate that she sees them all the time Otherwise and be gracious about the situation

amother

DarkOrange

Sat, Apr 15 2023, 8:14 pm

amother Yellow wrote:

Of course a couple should decide what is right for them. But that doesn't mean they should think only about themselves and not take others into consideration. There's a certain level of maturity that healthy adults have, that allows them to step up in sensitive situations even when the situation is not ideal for them.

I'm referring to the story and not to your individual circumstances as I know nothing about you. As per the story, the couple seems to possess that maturity. How can such a couple sit at anyone else's seder, knowing that they're leaving their mother and siblings without any male to lead the seder.?

And to those who say women can lead a seder - that's true. But what kind of seder would that be for this family? Wouldn't it be compounding the pain? Wouldn't it be highlighting all the troubles they have been enduring the last few years on Seder night no less?

ruchelbuckle

Sat, Apr 15 2023, 8:28 pm

I agree with most of you. They were both wrong.

Tzivia came across as way too needy. You have been single for how many years? (lo aleinu), and you need to learn to build a life for yourself and not be so reliant on your son. It's so not fair to him (and his wife). (Sorry, I hope I am not coming across as unsympathetic to her challenges). It's not okay-- you need to figure out how to make yomim tovim meaningful even without a man around (do you think you are the only woman in the world who makes shabbos and Y't seudos without a man around? you need a mindset shift about this.

Nechami came across as a spoiled brat. You have to deny this to Tzivia, just because you want a "little nachas?" Your kids are not nachas machines.