Double Take Pesach Version. Thoughts?

amother

Viola

Sat, Apr 15 2023, 11:28 pm

Nechami is totally in the wrong here. She went behind the couples back and tried to make arrangements for them to suite her wants.
I wouldn't say that Tzivia is enmeshed. She only expects her son's help over yom tov, which is very understandable. He's an only son and the pain of being a single mother, becomes very raw over yom tov. Yes, she technically can make yom tov on her own without a male figure, but she shouldn't have to.
Wanting to have her only son home for yom tov, is a very reasonable request.
(I wonder if the reactions would be the same if she was an almana. For some reason, people have more compassion towards almana's than divorcee's.)

keym

Sat, Apr 15 2023, 11:31 pm

amother Papaya wrote:

I sympathize with the single mom but the point you're all missing is - he went to help her from after.rosh chodesh. That is too much. He should he able to arrive the day of bedikas chalets. The mother and her teenagers should manage the cleaning Kashering cooking etc and he should arrive as a guest with just very minimal prep work left. She isn't a mother of a few babies- teenage girls usually are off school from rosh cjodesh as well- she can and should manage the advance work. That the dil has to take off 2 extra weeks from work is ridiculous. Otherwise yes the son belongs with his mother and the other mother should appreciate that she sees them all the time Otherwise and be gracious about the situation

I think that was my feeling also, which led me to feel that there's too much enmeshment.
Speaking as a married woman who does most of the preparation, simply because of my husband's work schedule.

Also, I was raised in a single parent home (my father died when I was a teenager). Having someone make the Seder is a must. The rest of Yom Tov, not so much.

amother

Tulip

Sat, Apr 15 2023, 11:45 pm

I’m taken aback at everyone agreeing (with Tzivya), that the single parent “must” have her son there and that it’s “not Pesach” without a male present…

It’s NEVER a child’s job to take care of a (physically healthy) parent (and kids in single parent homes already may feel that way, why reinforce it?) Tzivya had a bunch of teenagers (as opposed to being home herself), she could make a beautiful Pesach (yes, gasp, even the seder) without her son whose job is NOT to be head of his mother’s household. I think the expectations and load she put on her son is unhealthy and unfair (to BOTH of them).

Signed, a single parent of teenage children who bH has a beautiful, fun, meaningful, and inspiring Pesach (seder included), WITHOUT parentifying her children and asking them to take on inappropriate roles.

amother

Viola

Sat, Apr 15 2023, 11:50 pm

amother Tulip wrote:

Do you have teenaged sons? Or only daughters?
I don't agree with you. There's no reason that they shouldn't have a male figure at the sedarim. Even if she can manage on her own, she shouldn't have to.
It's very nice that you manage on your own, but many don't and there's no reason they should be forced to if there's another option. She never asks the son to step in, only over yom tov. 1/2 a yom tov actually. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that and kids are allowed to go out of their comfort zone for their family/parents. Asking a son to step in once a year, is not parentifying him or asking him to take on inappropriate roles. It's a normal request.

amother

Viola

Sat, Apr 15 2023, 11:57 pm

amother Plum wrote:

The DIL’s needs also count. If she wants to spend the sedarim with all her siblings—something that doesn’t seem to happen that often—that counts too.

And what’s wrong with a woman leading the seder? Or Shabbos seudos? I lived with a divorcee for a few years as a boarder and she had no problem leading seudos.

If the daughter in law has a problem, she or her husband should talk to the mother in law directly. It is very inappropriate for the daughter in laws mother to go behind her back and talk to the mother in law because she wants all her kids for yom tov, not because her daughter doesn't want to go to her MIL.
There's no reason MIL should lead the seder alone if there's an alternative option. Single mothers suffer enough, we should have more compassion.

amother

Tulip

Sun, Apr 16 2023, 12:00 am

amother Viola wrote:

I have both. Regardless, my sons are still not the head of my household, I am. They participate in the seder (offering divrei torah etc) similarly to my daughters. And I would feel the same way if I had only daughters. I would definitely try to give them exposure to men at their seder some years (because I think it’s healthy for them to have males around for various reasons just like it’s healthy for boys to have exposure to women) but if one year they couldn’t have that we’d all survive, even thrive.

It wasn’t once a year in the double take (I believe it was other yomim tovim as well) and I don’t object to her wanting them to come when they could but the idea that they need to come every single year or she and her other children would fall apart is disturbing.

The learned helplessness (on behalf of the women) and putting children in positions that are not appropriate for them (making them responsible to meet and fulfill their parent’s physical and emotional and spiritual needs when it should primarily be the other way around) are very unhealthy and not helpful to anyone.

Again, I understand wanting to have him be there as much as possible it’s the inability to manage without him even once that I find upsetting and I object to the message she’s sending her children.

(Btw, I think Nechami was in the wrong in the story as well Wink

)

amother

Plum

Sun, Apr 16 2023, 12:03 am

amother Viola wrote:

And if her husband doesn’t agree because he feels pressure to lead his mother’s seder?

Somehow I get the sense that if the DIL did say something Tzivia would be mortally wounded and never let her DIL or DS live it down, no matter how many sedarim he leads for her.

I feel for Tzivia, but I also think she’s being extremely self-centered. Other people (including her mechutanim and her DIL and son) have needs and preferences also. And seriously, demanding that her DS and DDIL come for 2 weeks before Pesach regardless of their schedule is extremely inconsiderate.

keym

Sun, Apr 16 2023, 12:04 am

amother Viola wrote:

I would agree that it's a normal request to ask ones son to step in JUST for the sedarim. But a few points.

1) she expects her Dil to take 2 weeks vacation and come so her son can take care of all the "early" preparations (that one can easily hire bachurim and speak to a Rav.) She seems to see her son and Dil at her beck and call.

2) there is another option this year, maybe not perfect but an option to have the new SIL lead.

3) it was clear that she expects her son to be there first and last days of all yomim tovim AND Shavuos. It said that sometimes they go to the other side for Shabbos Chol Hamoed but always back for the last days. That's excessive and unfair.

amother

Plum

Sun, Apr 16 2023, 12:05 am

amother Tulip wrote:

I have both. But my sons are still not the head of my household, I am. They participate in the seder (offering divrei torah etc) similarly to my daughters. And I would feel the same way if I had only daughters. I would definitely try to give them exposure to men at their seder some years (because I think it’s healthy for them to have males around for various reasons just like it’s healthy for boys to have exposure to women) but if one year they couldn’t have that we’d all survive, even thrive.

It wasn’t once a year in the double take (I believe it was other yomim tovim as well) and I don’t object to her wanting them to come when they could but the idea that they need to come every single year or she and her other children would fall apart is disturbing.

The learned helplessness (on behalf of the women) and putting children in positions that are not appropriate for them (making them responsible to meet and fulfill their parent’s physical and emotional and spiritual needs when it should primarily be the other way around) are very unhealthy and not helpful to anyone.

Again, I understand wanting to have him be there as much as possible it’s the inability to manage without him even once that I find upsetting.

(Btw, I think Nechami was in the wrong in the story as well Wink

)

So well-expressed.

amother

Plum

Sun, Apr 16 2023, 12:07 am

keym wrote:

Yes. Why should Tzivia be “allowed” to monopolize their time over YT?

keym

Sun, Apr 16 2023, 12:13 am

amother Plum wrote:

Yes. Why should Tzivia be “allowed” to monopolize their time over YT?

Slightly different but still. My father passed away when I was a teen, I was the oldest, no brothers over bar mitzvah.
When I got married, it was agreed that my husband and I would come to do the Seder by my mother until the next sister got married and there was another brother in law.
But we all tried to be fair and mentchlich and we always did second half and most of Sukkos by my in-laws. I know it was hard for my fil that we didn't go to his Seder, but we made it up to him by coming even more on Sukkos.

nechamashifra

Sun, Apr 23 2023, 3:01 pm

They are both wrong. Children are not your commodities.
That being said, Tzvivia is more wrong than Nechami. She is leaning on her son to fill the void in her household. Your life is not his to fix.
I think Nechami was thinking more about her daughter missing out on hanging out with her out of town siblings who she never sees otherwise, and the grandchildren who don't get a chance to get to know their cousins.

amother

Rose

Sun, Apr 23 2023, 3:26 pm

Are the siblings only staying for the first days? The grandkids can meet each other on Chol Hamoed, can't they?

I think Tzivia needs her son more than her DIL needs to spend time with her siblings, especially since this isn't a permanent situation, as they themselves have realized.

The only thing I don't understand is why they need to go two weeks before YT. Why does Shuey need to do the heavy cleaning? IMO, Tzivia doesn't need him till max 5-6 days before YT to kasher, help turn over and check and sell the chometz. She shouldn't lean on him so heavily and shouldn't parentify him.

I have a SIL in a similar situation - her XH abandoned the family right before Pesach, they had one married son. He did come the first few years. But SIL leaned on him much too much and although he's a really good kid (ok, man by now) the parentifying was just too much, so he had to back off a bit. Now it's 6-7 years later. DN goes to his wife's family most years and SIL manages on her own with her kids who are still home. It's not pleasant and they don't have much of a seder. OTOH, SIL is so bitter about what happened to her marriage, that she isn't in a good place re Yiddishkeit, so I don't know how much she cares about a seder. Sad

amother

Amber

Sun, Apr 23 2023, 7:07 pm

seafood wrote:

Am I the only one who doesn't understand both mothers? Who are they to decide where the children will be? That decision is one the couple has to make on their own. The whole idea that they are discussing this as if its their decision...

This! I read this and was so thrown off. Why is it either of their business to arrange their adult children's schedule?!?!
I hope this is not a normal thing because it made me sick

B'Syata D'Shmya

Sat, May 06 2023, 7:54 pm

amother Amber wrote:

This! I read this and was so thrown off. Why is it either of their business to arrange their adult children's schedule?!?!
I hope this is not a normal thing because it made me sick

Relax all, this is fiction and not "normal" (Real life is actually crazier!). The machinations of the Mother to go behind her daughters back and talk to her machateynista sickens me too. The married couple are not two babies or puppets. Such behavior causes divorces.
Yes, Tziviya needs to learn to cope without her oldest son and probably will in the natural course of things. Perhaps even remarry eventually. She clearly still needs therapy. For now her eldest comes with his family willingly but she needs to prepare for the day that he cant. She cant expect her new Son in law to take head of house duties and may consider going Leil HaSeder to her sisters or someone elses Seder. She has options. For now this works. Whether its healthy or not is not the issue. Arent we all guilty of unhealthy choices?
Her eldest seems to be his own person (living far away, not involved daily in helping his Mother etc.) and do his own thing but genuinely wants to help his Mother in this way at this time. No resentment there. His wife didnt complain until her Mother prodded her. Of course she would rather stay at home and be with her parents, thats natural. Helping her MIL in this way is a huge chessed. If she couldnt do it (work-wise, kid-wise etc.) she would communicate that with her husband and they decide what they can and cant do. Perhaps they would compromise with arriving one week before Pesach and not two. Thats up to them.
The DIL Faigy should not be discussing it with her Mother at all. There are not 3 in that marriage.
Her Mother should of course invite Faigys family for Pesach, explaining that the others are coming , BUt the decision is the young couples and not a discussion between the Mothers in law. Tzivia was right not to answer her.