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scruffy
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 Mon, May 22 2023, 12:19 pm
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Why on earth would you make a big vachtnacht? Isn't that the last thing anyone would want a week after having a baby??
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amother
NeonGreen
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Mon, May 22 2023, 12:25 pm
| amother Moccasin wrote: | Lowering standards, imo, begins from the bottom up. Allow me to explain:
When a big gvir makes an over the top simcha, that same gvir gives over the top tzedakah. They are supporting mosdos and deserve to make an affair in alignment with what they give. Their names are anyway plastered all over the place so it's not the affair making the statement, it's already the name association with all their sponsorships. We expect their simchas to be on a grand scale.
I grew up as a child of klei kodesh parents. My grandparents were also in klei kodesh and paid for the clothes that weren't hand me downs. Our home was simple as were our simchas. My parents raised us in a way that we felt like it was a badge of honor to be simple because in those days that was practically a flashing sign that your father was a rebbi, rav, kollel yungerman........Whenever we complained our parents reminded us that we should be proud of who we are and we are showing the hamon am what it means to live as a nation that is tznius and doesn't flaunt itself. I don't know how my parents did it but we really were proud to be the children of klei kodesh and most of my siblings are in klei kodesh. At that time, the chinuch kids were the "poor" ones in the class
We both started in klei kodesh for many years, I still work in a school but for a few reasons my husband went into business. It didn't work out for him to remain in chinuch. It wasn't a financial decision. BH we are comfortable but with our higher tuitions, not as much access to rebbi deals like chasdei lev (I do get some benefits from other chinuch discounted programs because I work in a school), no government subsidies we can't really afford more than the chinuch families.
But we are all so brainwashed that chinuch families are poor, chinuch families can't afford food for yuntif, or nice brand name clothes or camp, or simchas or...or ....or.... that we assume they are the poorest of society. Since I have so much family in chinuch I'm speaking from experience.
So then they make a nice simcha, not over the top like the gvirim, but nicer than some working families. And you start thinking, if they're poor because that's what all the articles say, and we're busy getting the message that we need to tip them and give them gifts because they don't get paid much and businesses give them discounts and they get pesach practically for free and then they're able to afford such a nice simcha then what's wrong with me that we are working and we can't afford the same? I don't want to appear as even poorer than the poor so we try to make our simchas at least as nice as theirs.
Here's the problem- we're not on equal playing fields. When it was time for my daughter's vort, I asked a very close neighbor who had just made her daughter's vort in a very nice simcha hall, and was a beautiful affair about costs (we have that kind of relationship) she told me she can't really tell me because the simcha hall gives it to klei kodesh for free and all the vendors she used gave chinuch discounts and the music was her husband's former talmid so he did it for free since they're in chinuch and basically she couldn't even tell me regular prices. After I called all these vendors myself, I realized that for us, a middle class family, no one was offering us discounts and it was unaffordable for us. Our vort was in our house, very simple comparatively, and yes I felt stupid that I couldn't even make a simcha like the poor chinuch families. People feel pressure to at least live up to that standard since rabbeim are considered poor. But if the poor are getting discounts and freebies for luxuries, how should the middle class afford the same?
Then for the wedding there was an add on sheet of upgrades we could do. A sibling had recently made a simcha at that hall with all the upgrades and I was talking to her about how expensive all the upgrades are and how all the poor people have the upgrades so it is considered normal to do and how can we look poor by not adding them? Her response? She never got an upgrade sheet. It was all magically included in the price sheet. So basically chinuch families had upgrades included and the rest of us had to pay for them! We stretched ourselves to do it because of my daughter and it takes a lot of gevurah so not feel stupid for making a simcha simpler than a rebbi does.
Therefore, if chinuch families led the march to simpler simchas, the rest of us middle class wouldn't feel stupid making simple simchas.
As for the poor lady who received vouchers for very high end linen- I agree the store was wrong for announcing that but when I'm giving tzedakah it's for people to live with necessities. I can't afford high end linen myself but I should give tzedakah so someone else can? Why? To me that's a luxury and that's not what giving tzedakah is about! Maybe once in a while I would gift someone something I can't afford myself but that's after careful consideration due to hakaras hatov. |
ALL OF THIS.
The gvirim are not whats ruining us and not who most people are chasing.
But very hard to explain to children and ourselves why we can't have things anywhere near as nice as the "poor" klei kodesh.
What shlemazels are we with our jobs paying several hundred k a year that we can't keep up.
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Bnei Berak 10
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Mon, May 22 2023, 12:28 pm
| Genius wrote: | People in chinuch are somehow richer than the middle working class. Think free or subsidized tuition and vouchers and stuff for Yom Tov.
I don’t think our communities have to cut down on the spending. We need to approach this as individuals.
Saying that the rich need to lower the standards is just turning everything on its head. Rich should make simchas according to their standards and everybody else should make according to theirs. |
I'm Litvish and I disagree. Because takkanot are being done among Chassidim it works beautifully. As individuals we are very weak.
In Israel there are certain chasdiduyot where they go by the carrot method. If you marry and follow the takkanot 100% you are entitled to large interest free loans and many other things.
If you don't follow you cant get those perks.
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asmileaday
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Mon, May 22 2023, 12:34 pm
| little neshamala wrote: | I really wish the onus for the trendsetting wouldnt be put on the wealthy.
Speaking as a non-weathy person, I really think this message needs to be addressed to the middle and lower class. Do what you can afford, or what you want to do. Why in the world do I have to follow other people, wealthy or not?? Where is everyone's self confidence? Where is the ability to live your life the way you want? Stop pressuring the wealthy, they are doing nothing wrong by living within their means!
Its the lower and middle class who are messing up here, by spending on things they cant afford and thus setting the lower/middle class bar at a different level.
Everyone just do what you want to do, and thats it!
UNREAL that tzedaka collections raise money for brand name linen. UNREAL.
This is not a wealthy person problem, this is on everyone else. |
I agree. That's what I was saying on page 1. Leave the wealthy alone.
By the way, me shmucky middle class guy, really enjoys the wealthy simchos why take away my free entertainment? Lol.
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Genius
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Mon, May 22 2023, 12:35 pm
| Bnei Berak 10 wrote: | I'm Litvish and I disagree. Because takkanot are being done among Chassidim it works beautifully. As individuals we are very weak.
In Israel there are certain chasdiduyot where they go by the carrot method. If you marry and follow the takkanot 100% you are entitled to large interest free loans and many other things.
If you don't follow you cant get those perks. |
I like the carrot idea because it appeals to the people who really benefit from cutting down on their wedding expenses. And positivity is always better.
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Genius
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Mon, May 22 2023, 12:36 pm
| asmileaday wrote: | I agree. That's what I was saying on page 1. Leave the wealthy alone.
By the way, me shmucky middle class guy, really enjoys the wealthy simchos why take away my free entertainment? Lol. |
lol we all need wealthy friends!
I volunteer to become the wealthy friend. Anybody familiar with a fast track to billionairism?
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Mollie
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Mon, May 22 2023, 12:42 pm
| watergirl wrote: | Please someone explain this to me. When we made a vacht nacht, kids came over, said shmah, got candy, goodbye. The first time I'd heard of it being a THING was when my husband's ex had a baby with another husband and they made a huge thing, but I chalked it up to just a weird thing she did... no one in my community does more than shema, candy, leave.
What do you mean "go back to"? When did it change? |
I think it’s a chassidishe thing to make a party/seudah for the vach nacht
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asmileaday
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Mon, May 22 2023, 12:54 pm
| watergirl wrote: | Please someone explain this to me. When we made a vacht nacht, kids came over, said shmah, got candy, goodbye. The first time I'd heard of it being a THING was when my husband's ex had a baby with another husband and they made a huge thing, but I chalked it up to just a weird thing she did... no one in my community does more than shema, candy, leave.
What do you mean "go back to"? When did it change? |
I grew up with vachtnacht parties done all the time. But it was usually in the baby's house or in the grandparents house. Fish and kugel was served as well some nuts chocolate and chips on the table.
The baby's fathers friends would come over say Mazel tov and lein krias shma.
Zehu.
I still did my vachtnachts like that. My 1st one was in my parents house and the others were in my house. Very low key. No stress. Dh cleaned up afterwards. Yes I lived in a tiny 1 bedroom but had a roomy dining room and we made it work.
I think people began making it in halls due to lack of space. And once you're doing it in a hall it's just a hop and skip to making it bigger and fancier.
I agree that it's over the top. Live music, hot foods, exquisite pekelech etc...
That poster means going back to the home events where people came for a few minutes said their Mazel tovs and krias shma and went on their merry way with a small bag of chips as a pekel.
If I were to ever make a vachtnacht again I would still make it lowkey and at home.
It's on the individual not to be peer pressured. (Especially when it's a one sided affair with no one else's preferences to consider.)
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watergirl
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Mon, May 22 2023, 1:02 pm
| Mollie wrote: | | I think it’s a chassidishe thing to make a party/seudah for the vach nacht |
Vach nacht is a chassidish thing. I’m chassidish. But I don’t live in NY/NJ and have only seen them done the way we do - the kids come, say shema, get a bag of candy. Done.
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amother
Peru
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Mon, May 22 2023, 1:10 pm
| amother Moccasin wrote: | Lowering standards, imo, begins from the bottom up. Allow me to explain:
When a big gvir makes an over the top simcha, that same gvir gives over the top tzedakah. They are supporting mosdos and deserve to make an affair in alignment with what they give. Their names are anyway plastered all over the place so it's not the affair making the statement, it's already the name association with all their sponsorships. We expect their simchas to be on a grand scale.
I grew up as a child of klei kodesh parents. My grandparents were also in klei kodesh and paid for the clothes that weren't hand me downs. Our home was simple as were our simchas. My parents raised us in a way that we felt like it was a badge of honor to be simple because in those days that was practically a flashing sign that your father was a rebbi, rav, kollel yungerman........Whenever we complained our parents reminded us that we should be proud of who we are and we are showing the hamon am what it means to live as a nation that is tznius and doesn't flaunt itself. I don't know how my parents did it but we really were proud to be the children of klei kodesh and most of my siblings are in klei kodesh. At that time, the chinuch kids were the "poor" ones in the class
We both started in klei kodesh for many years, I still work in a school but for a few reasons my husband went into business. It didn't work out for him to remain in chinuch. It wasn't a financial decision. BH we are comfortable but with our higher tuitions, not as much access to rebbi deals like chasdei lev (I do get some benefits from other chinuch discounted programs because I work in a school), no government subsidies we can't really afford more than the chinuch families.
But we are all so brainwashed that chinuch families are poor, chinuch families can't afford food for yuntif, or nice brand name clothes or camp, or simchas or...or ....or.... that we assume they are the poorest of society. Since I have so much family in chinuch I'm speaking from experience.
So then they make a nice simcha, not over the top like the gvirim, but nicer than some working families. And you start thinking, if they're poor because that's what all the articles say, and we're busy getting the message that we need to tip them and give them gifts because they don't get paid much and businesses give them discounts and they get pesach practically for free and then they're able to afford such a nice simcha then what's wrong with me that we are working and we can't afford the same? I don't want to appear as even poorer than the poor so we try to make our simchas at least as nice as theirs.
Here's the problem- we're not on equal playing fields. When it was time for my daughter's vort, I asked a very close neighbor who had just made her daughter's vort in a very nice simcha hall, and was a beautiful affair about costs (we have that kind of relationship) she told me she can't really tell me because the simcha hall gives it to klei kodesh for free and all the vendors she used gave chinuch discounts and the music was her husband's former talmid so he did it for free since they're in chinuch and basically she couldn't even tell me regular prices. After I called all these vendors myself, I realized that for us, a middle class family, no one was offering us discounts and it was unaffordable for us. Our vort was in our house, very simple comparatively, and yes I felt stupid that I couldn't even make a simcha like the poor chinuch families. People feel pressure to at least live up to that standard since rabbeim are considered poor. But if the poor are getting discounts and freebies for luxuries, how should the middle class afford the same?
Then for the wedding there was an add on sheet of upgrades we could do. A sibling had recently made a simcha at that hall with all the upgrades and I was talking to her about how expensive all the upgrades are and how all the poor people have the upgrades so it is considered normal to do and how can we look poor by not adding them? Her response? She never got an upgrade sheet. It was all magically included in the price sheet. So basically chinuch families had upgrades included and the rest of us had to pay for them! We stretched ourselves to do it because of my daughter and it takes a lot of gevurah so not feel stupid for making a simcha simpler than a rebbi does.
Therefore, if chinuch families led the march to simpler simchas, the rest of us middle class wouldn't feel stupid making simple simchas.
As for the poor lady who received vouchers for very high end linen- I agree the store was wrong for announcing that but when I'm giving tzedakah it's for people to live with necessities. I can't afford high end linen myself but I should give tzedakah so someone else can? Why? To me that's a luxury and that's not what giving tzedakah is about! Maybe once in a while I would gift someone something I can't afford myself but that's after careful consideration due to hakaras hatov. |
If you’re jealous of chinuch families, switch your profession.
Also people who give to hachnasas kallah are giving especially to outfit the kallah’s who can’t afford in style. It doesn’t even have to be tzedakah. I’m from a city where the women do a hostess shower for every kallah (and the kallas of local chassanim as well) and we outfit them in style- linen, towels, kitchen appliances, dishes, china. Everything we can think of to help out. Start it in your own city if you’re so resentful. For my part, for $65 I can help a kallah’s new life beautiful and I’m all there for it.
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Mollie
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Mon, May 22 2023, 1:10 pm
| watergirl wrote: | | Vach nacht is a chassidish thing. I’m chassidish. But I don’t live in NY/NJ and have only seen them done the way we do - the kids come, say shema, get a bag of candy. Done. |
We have chasisidish cousins who have the custom of a seudas mitzvah (fleishig meal) for the vach nacht. They do it in their house, pretty low key, but definitely more then pekelach and Shema
Quick google search brought me to this:
There is another minhag, done by the Sephardim and Chassidim of making a seuda the night before the bris. It is also done for protection, and as simcha for the mitzva that will take place the next day, (See Divrei Yatziv Y 160).
Last edited by Mollie on Mon, May 22 2023, 1:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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amother
Peru
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Mon, May 22 2023, 1:13 pm
| Genius wrote: | People in chinuch are somehow richer than the middle working class. Think free or subsidized tuition and vouchers and stuff for Yom Tov.
I don’t think our communities have to cut down on the spending. We need to approach this as individuals.
Saying that the rich need to lower the standards is just turning everything on its head. Rich should make simchas according to their standards and everybody else should make according to theirs. |
Please recognize that these incentives are because no one wants to go into chinuch because it’s not livable. If people could live on chinuch wages they wouldn’t be running to go into business and therapies and nursing. They would be teaching while in school for a real job. Who will teach your children if we take away incentives? I’m not a teacher, but I wouldn’t even consider it in today’s world.
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Genius
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Mon, May 22 2023, 1:16 pm
| amother Peru wrote: | | Please recognize that these incentives are because no one wants to go into chinuch because it’s not livable. If people could live on chinuch wages they wouldn’t be running to go into business and therapies and nursing. They would be teaching while in school for a real job. Who will teach your children if we take away incentives? I’m not a teacher, but I wouldn’t even consider it in today’s world. |
Oh don’t take this the wrong way. I have no problem with them getting all the incentives.
It’s the same idea with the middle class being poorer than the poor because they pay insurance and food and everything else that the poor get on the governments tab.
It’s just an observation.
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lamplighter
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Mon, May 22 2023, 1:29 pm
My husband always says, what happens if we give or do less? People will know we're not rich? We're not! Why are we pretending?
I struggle with this. I want "normal" so if the standard of normal is high or higher than my personal preference I lean in that direction especially when it comes to children but his perspective is pretty spot on.
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Genius
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Mon, May 22 2023, 1:33 pm
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We are the ones who create the normal. So if we’ll cut down on unnecessary luxuries, not doing or having said luxury will be the new normal. No?
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amother
Yolk
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Mon, May 22 2023, 2:00 pm
A vort is ment to make a new kallah confident in her new family feel happy. Of course if all her life she want to be same as her peers she wants a nice vort and
Not every poor person lives in a big tidy home. So it makes sense to book a hall
Not every average/poor hardworking person has the time to make and bake nice cakes, cookies, miniatures so we need to buy those too. And what about coupon Killah that get engaged close to tomim tovim
We need some salad and stuff for the out of town guests so add the hot kugel.
Keep the kugel on the men's side so all the hungry men could come home telling their wives just o e portion is enough tonight.
The girl in shiduchim could have her future mil. Check on her and all the shadchanim could find out which girls are on the market.
People who know in advance they can't make it to the wedding could wish at the chosen Kallah mazal tov now. Like the cousin/friend that lives in isreal.
I don't find vorts to be over the top there is just in so many ways to upgrade. Some times the family opts for no vort at all usually if it's before yomim tovim
The poor and rich on my community make similar Simcha they use the same middle of the road halls. Chose similar flowers. Friends and family chip into cakes. The rich might have more food,
Music video and picture photography...
On the other hand a poor person bris is usually in shul served with bagels a d the standards keep creeping because the rich bris is in a big hall high hot and cold food. Mother right after a baby talking to everyone wearing a bramd new stunning gown like dress.
Let's start in other parts of life before we focus on vorts. There will also be those people that have so much money they just can't find enough ways to spend it.
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watergirl
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Mon, May 22 2023, 2:16 pm
| amother Yolk wrote: | A vort is ment to make a new kallah confident in her new family feel happy. Of course if all her life she want to be same as her peers she wants a nice vort and
Not every poor person lives in a big tidy home. So it makes sense to book a hall
Not every average/poor hardworking person has the time to make and bake nice cakes, cookies, miniatures so we need to buy those too. And what about coupon Killah that get engaged close to tomim tovim
We need some salad and stuff for the out of town guests so add the hot kugel.
Keep the kugel on the men's side so all the hungry men could come home telling their wives just o e portion is enough tonight.
The girl in shiduchim could have her future mil. Check on her and all the shadchanim could find out which girls are on the market.
People who know in advance they can't make it to the wedding could wish at the chosen Kallah mazal tov now. Like the cousin/friend that lives in isreal.
I don't find vorts to be over the top there is just in so many ways to upgrade. Some times the family opts for no vort at all usually if it's before yomim tovim
The poor and rich on my community make similar Simcha they use the same middle of the road halls. Chose similar flowers. Friends and family chip into cakes. The rich might have more food,
Music video and picture photography...
On the other hand a poor person bris is usually in shul served with bagels a d the standards keep creeping because the rich bris is in a big hall high hot and cold food. Mother right after a baby talking to everyone wearing a bramd new stunning gown like dress.
Let's start in other parts of life before we focus on vorts. There will also be those people that have so much money they just can't find enough ways to spend it. |
So this here seems to be the issue. Your list of things you NEED to do are not needed. It's honestly a lot of narishkeit.
You said "Not every average/poor hardworking person has the time to make and bake nice cakes, cookies, miniatures so we need to buy those too. And what about coupon Killah that get engaged close to tomim tovim".
The point of the speech was that it's time to go back to basics. Cake, on a plate. Your neighbors can and should be contributing. Whenever I get an invitation to a vort, no matter how well I know the baalei simcha, my first question is what can I bring. This is how it's done by me. No one NEEDS to order miniatures or the fancy cakes or the personalized cookies. The kallah's peers had it and all her life she wanted it also? Time for her to grow up.
Keep the kugel on the men's side so all the hungry men could come home telling their wives just o e portion is enough tonight.
I don't even know what you mean by this honestly. Go back to just cake and eat dinner at home.
We need some salad and stuff for the out of town guests so add the hot kugel.
Maybe out of town guests should not drive in for a vort, other than the immediate family who can and should go out and find dinner before or after the vort. Why are people driving in from out of town? End that expectation and it automatically becomes the more simple affair Rabbi Wachsman is talking about!
Not every poor person lives in a big tidy home. So it makes sense to book a hall
Or, go to your own shul and pay the small fee and use their simple room. Yet another important way to simplify a vort.
The poor and rich on my community make similar Simcha they use the same middle of the road halls. Chose similar flowers. Friends and family chip into cakes. The rich might have more food,
Music video and picture photography...
This is the whole point - the poor should not be booking halls. Music? Playlist from 24six or Naki radio on a speaker (borrow one).
Photography? Ask friends to take pictures and email them to you. These are things that people have come to accept and expect as minimal and normal and they are not.
Shall I go on?
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little neshamala
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Mon, May 22 2023, 2:21 pm
| watergirl wrote: | So this here seems to be the issue. Your list of things you NEED to do are not needed. It's honestly a lot of narishkeit.
You said "Not every average/poor hardworking person has the time to make and bake nice cakes, cookies, miniatures so we need to buy those too. And what about coupon Killah that get engaged close to tomim tovim".
The point of the speech was that it's time to go back to basics. Cake, on a plate. Your neighbors can and should be contributing. Whenever I get an invitation to a vort, no matter how well I know the baalei simcha, my first question is what can I bring. This is how it's done by me. No one NEEDS to order miniatures or the fancy cakes or the personalized cookies. The kallah's peers had it and all her life she wanted it also? Time for her to grow up.
Keep the kugel on the men's side so all the hungry men could come home telling their wives just o e portion is enough tonight.
I don't even know what you mean by this honestly. Go back to just cake and eat dinner at home.
We need some salad and stuff for the out of town guests so add the hot kugel.
Maybe out of town guests should not drive in for a vort, other than the immediate family who can and should go out and find dinner before or after the vort. Why are people driving in from out of town? End that expectation and it automatically becomes the more simple affair Rabbi Wachsman is talking about!
Not every poor person lives in a big tidy home. So it makes sense to book a hall
Or, go to your own shul and pay the small fee and use their simple room. Yet another important way to simplify a vort.
The poor and rich on my community make similar Simcha they use the same middle of the road halls. Chose similar flowers. Friends and family chip into cakes. The rich might have more food,
Music video and picture photography...
This is the whole point - the poor should not be booking halls. Music? Playlist from 24six or Naki radio on a speaker (borrow one).
Photography? Ask friends to take pictures and email them to you. These are things that people have come to accept and expect as minimal and normal and they are not.
Shall I go on? |
Agree completely
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chanatron1000
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Mon, May 22 2023, 2:24 pm
| GLUE wrote: | It was not about Vorts but about the insane spending on weddings.
I don't think it's the people who have who have to lead the way but the people who don't have the money, have to start.
I have found that many people with money have no problem on not spending it. It's the people who don't have money that need to upgrade. Is it because they are getting some or most of it sponsored?
A women who runs a linen store was telling my mother when my mother went to buy for her first Kallah that the it's not the rich who buy the brand name expensive linen that is expensive because of the name, it's the ones that are getting the Kallah help. I could go on about this topic.
Yes, I think Vorts are a wast of money. |
It's not that people who have money don't have to spend or that people who don't have money have to spend. It's that regardless of the specific level of wealth or income, people who have as much money as they present themselves as having don't have anything to prove, while those who don't do.
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Highstrung
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Mon, May 22 2023, 2:25 pm
| watergirl wrote: | | Vach nacht is a chassidish thing. I’m chassidish. But I don’t live in NY/NJ and have only seen them done the way we do - the kids come, say shema, get a bag of candy. Done. |
That’s called a “Krias Shema Leinin” also known as a Krishma Leinin. This occurs in the early evening where young boys come to say shema and get a pekel.
A vacht nacht is to protect the baby from the satan or “sheidim” because they come the night before the bris. so the father is supposed to stay up all night learning to protect the baby . This morphed into the fathers friends celebrating late into the night with some nosh to wish the new father Mazal Tov and to keep him awake. This then went way out of hand and turned into a full fledged meal with men and women and now on halls?!
I made simple Vacht nachts at home for men only . The one child I didn’t do a Vacht nacht for , my DH stayed up the entire night Learning .
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