Spoiled Americans | Imamother

amother

Seafoam

Mon, Jun 19 2023, 12:34 pm

Chayalle wrote:

I am thinking of my in-laws house in Flatbush and my cousins in London.
Coat closet - check (both)
ac - check (both, not central but in the rooms)
toilet on every floor - check (London relatives have one on main floor, two on upper floor. That's more than my in-laws)
have a laundry room - neither, though London relatives have larger upstairs bathroom)

Yeah, it's not the same.

I rent in London in a tiny terraced house worth £800k (over $1M). We are not blessed with a downstairs toilet. My washing machine and dryers are in the kitchen. It’s embarrassing on laundry day 🙈. I’m not unique though.

Brooklyn is tighter than Lakewood to drive in but London and rally the rest of the uk is much tighter! The parking spaces here (“bays”) are half the size of American spaces.

My American families are scarrrrrred when they come. You live in a shtetl, is their favorite line.

Raisin

Mon, Jun 19 2023, 12:39 pm

amother Tuberose wrote:

Have you ever been to Ranaana or affluent suburbs of London ( not frum areas)? Because I have

It is full of beautiful homes, but looks absolutely nothing like affluent suburban New Jersey where I am from. America does have a higher standard of housing compared to the rest of the world - that is just the reality of living in a country with a robust economy and a HUGE amount of available land.

As for the A/C - Londoners never needed A/C until the past few years when they where hit by heatwaves and everyone who can afford it has been putting them in. Sure - there are areas of Scandinavia that don't need A/C, but the majority of Europe does at this point

Well yes, I have. Not to millions of houses. But I have been to some gorgeous houses in Ranana, nicer than many NJ suburban american homes.

The part of Europe I am in does not need a/c. Heatwave right now and managing fine, we don't even have a fan in our room. Europe is pretty big. London needs a/c that is true.

I agree that in many parts of the USA where there are frum communities it is possible to buy housing relatively cheaply. I really don't think that is the case in Brooklyn anymore. People I know who bought houses recently in Brooklyn do not have walk in closets or en suite bathrooms. Just regular city houses. Maybe a garden with some grass if you are lucky. But then I know someone else who moved out of her cramped Brooklyn apartment to a cheaper city and bought a gorgeous house with all those things plus a pool.

In the UK most frum communities are situated in urban areas with pretty expensive housing, similar to Brooklyn. Manchester is cheaper so people with good jobs might get a lot more for their money and have nicer houses. But of course there are people in the UK living in gorgeous modern houses with en suites, bathrooms on each floor, (pretty standard in reg houses) laundry rooms (every house I have lived in has had a laundry room), walk in closets, etc.

In Europe btw most kids have 2 month summer vacation, slightly shorter then the US, I think 8 rather then 10 weeks. UK is an outlier in only giving 6 weeks.

What is unique about the US frum community is large frum communities in cheaper suburban areas.

Personally I hate suburbs and would rather be able to walk to the supermarket and live in a bustling city area than have a walk in closet but to each their own.

Chayalle

Mon, Jun 19 2023, 12:43 pm

amother Seafoam wrote:

I think it's all very specific. My relatives (Golders Green, Hendon) do not have such small homes.

BTW my mother also had her laundry in the kitchen. She built sliding doors around it to close it off. People thought it was a Pesach kitchen, which we did not have. They couldn't believe it was the
laundry.

And yes, my English aunt has a Pesach kitchen.

amother

Begonia

Mon, Jun 19 2023, 12:46 pm

Chayalle, I'm not sure if you're comparing like with like.

It seems that your relatives are living an upper class lifestyle in England. Contrast that with an upper class lifestyle where you live.

Sounds like your relatives have homes larger than the average here. And we have never left the country in the summer.

But, the people I know who did, definitely did spend less than sending kids to camp. You can get cheap flights, and apartments can be very cheap to rent in Europe. If you're savvy, and not staying in a hotel or anything (which no one I know does, though of course there are those who do) it doesn't have to work out much more than going to the countryside in England.

Anyway, I wish everyone much bracha in their lifestyle, and abundance of everything. It's a bracha to live in places of abundance, not a bad thing at all!!

Chayalle

Mon, Jun 19 2023, 12:57 pm

Begonia - but that's exactly my point. People are making generalized statements about the supposed spoiled Americans they know, based on their own experiences and lifestyle. While the Americans may know Europeans who, in fact, live more comfortably than many Americans. And they are not comparing like with like, comparing Lakewood to London (suburbs to city), etc....
Also, to me it's not about the dollar amount spent, but about availability and experience. OK, so you have cheap housing available for rent, and cheap flights, with accessibility to nice vacations for affordable rates, while we here in the US have full-time jobs that don't stop in the summer (if I left my job every summer I wouldn't have one all year!) that force us to spend more $$$ on summer camps that occupy our kids.
This does not make us more spoiled than our European counterparts. Just, living a lifestyle that fits what's available and works for us.

I don't think my European cousins are spoiled (they are lovely actually) and I don't think they think I am. We have different lifestyles based on where we live and what we can access.

Chayalle

Mon, Jun 19 2023, 1:03 pm

amother Begonia wrote:

I don't think US people are spoiled btw, I never said that.

From what I've seen, it seems that standards and lifestyles for the average person are much higher than in England.

But, yes people do seem to work much harder there.

So of course, there's a tradeoff with everything.

The working lifestyle here is for many not a choice. Nor the sending to summer camp (starting with daycamp, and sleepaway later on). I don't have a job that stops in the summer, so I have to send my kids out so they are in a good environment. It's expensive, yes. I don't have the month off as part of a normal lifestyle, and the option to fly or drive to nearby countries and spend time relaxing at the sea. Even if it's cheaper (I'm not sure it is), it's definitely a quality life I don't have access to.

Thanks for acknowledging the differences respectfully.

LovesHashem

Mon, Jun 19 2023, 1:08 pm

amother Begonia wrote:

Yes. Flights from the US to Europe are really expensive as the US is very far from Europe geographically.

Flights from Israel or England to Europe are much cheaper. Hotels you can find for 100$ a night. Going on a vacation in Europe is easily the same price if not cheaper than renting a car and going to the north of Israel during bein hazmanim. Rentals, gas cost a lot plus an Airbnb/tzimmer/hotel during summer and bein hazmanim is no where near 100$ a room.

Obiovusly there's those who book in advance and find great deals and take public transport and don't do any activities that aren't public parks or trails etc but going to Europe is really not expensive.

And on the flip side you can make Europe much more expensive than it needs to be by buying so much stuff, going with expensive tour groups, eating out every meal at fancy restaraunt etc.

Last edited by LovesHashem on Mon, Jun 19 2023, 1:10 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Tuberose

Mon, Jun 19 2023, 1:10 pm

amother Begonia wrote:

This is true.
Even among the wealthy in London, hardly any have huge houses and grounds like is the norm in the frum communites in the US. A pool? Unheard of. There's no space for that.

(Yes I know in NY many live in tiny apartments, but no one here has houses the size that people have in Lakewood etc. Just doesn't exist. Aside from the few streets of mansions, but those are for the SUPER wealthy.)

Even if you compare the mansions of the super wealthy in London it will look nothing like the home of the person with the same net worth in the States. And BTW the londoner or Israeli with the same net worth as a wealthy american probably MADE a lot more money, because they pay more taxes.

Its not just housing

America is a low tax low service country. This means there are more opportunities to become wealthy - and means you have more access to a higher standard of living. In Europe there are more services but less opportunities for class mobility. In Israel, if you start making enough to live on a normal western standard of living, you get taxed so bad it is really difficult to make it (mainly because of the insane defense budget). I would still take Israel with its lower standard of living any day.

Chayalle - I think that not recognizing that all the countries in the OECD - so Americans AND european's and even Israeli's are extremely spoiled compared to the majority of the world is silly. And if you look at the secular american society, a lot of the issues we are seeing ( like 30 year old living in there parents home, with no career or stable relationships) DO have to do with the culture of spoiling children and protecting them from the need to work hard. Like everything else that seeps into our culture, although not on the same level.

amother

Marigold

Mon, Jun 19 2023, 1:32 pm

amother Seafoam wrote:

All depends what part of London and the UK. I'm guessing you're in Stamford hill? My in laws are selling their terraced 5 bedroom house now and it's tiny downstairs! And it's been valued at 1.2 million. That's Stamford Hill for you. Not sure what the appeal is, honestly my house is about 3 plus times the size and new modern decor and it's worth around 5.5 in Manchester. Whoever buys theirs will probably extend and gut the place!

But tiny roads in Stamford hill compared to edgeware, hendon and Manchester

amother

Tuberose

Mon, Jun 19 2023, 1:36 pm

Raisin wrote:

Well yes, I have. Not to millions of houses. But I have been to some gorgeous houses in Ranana, nicer than many NJ suburban american homes.

You need to compare apples to apples. The gorgeous homes I have been to in Raanana where owned by very wealthy people.
Like this stunning home:
https://www.luxuryestate.com/h.....anana
Here is a similarly priced stunning home in Deal, NJ, which is a similar commute to NYC as Raanna is to TLV and is also a beach town.
https://www.point2homes.com/US......html
The deal home is a bit more expesive the n the raanana one, but remember that in israel you need to put down a bigger down payment, so whoever can afford the Raanna home can afford the Deal one. I specifically chose similarly styled (aka modern) homes
Look how much more property you are getting in Deal compared to Raanana

And as you go down the ladder in class you get a similar loss of space. So the middle class Israeli, yes even in the suburbs lives in a 4-5 bedroom apartment with a porch, duplex or cottage with a small yard, and the middle class american in suburbia lives in a 4-5 bedroom home of 1/2 acre + of land many times with a pool. Even my aunts "tiny" Brookly demi detached 3 bedroom + finished basement and attic is HUGE compared to the average Jerusalem apartment when you look at square footage....

We get so much in Israel, but EVERYONE except the UBER wealthy sacrifice on housing.

amother

Crimson

Mon, Jun 19 2023, 2:19 pm

amother Seafoam wrote:

Most people in Brooklyn:
Have AC
Have a coat closet
Have a toilet on every floor
Have a laundry room or at least in the bathroom not in the kitchen

It’s not the same.

Can't speak for Brooklyn. But where I grew up (and which is still a very large oot frum community), most people did not have bathrooms on the main floor. The laundry room was in an unfinished basement. The wealthier people would do renovations to have a laundry room adjoining their kitchen as a convenience. A basement laundry is not such a convenience when you have to go up and down rickety flights of steps with just a dim light bulb. Almost nobody had the laundry in their bathrooms--I remember babysitting one time at a house which had that feature, and I was really impressed. BTW, it wasn't the kind of climate where you could manage without a/c ...until the schools got a/c, we'd regularly get out early on hot days (above 95 degrees iirc), at least a few days at the beginning/end of the year. So yes, homes had a/c. But plenty had units instead of central.

Busybee5

Mon, Jun 19 2023, 2:33 pm

Chayalle wrote:

A pesach kitchen is not a rarity in England, at all. I grew up with one and I'm mid 30's. We have one now bh, my sister has, sisters in law, friends...
A laundry room is definitely more rare, but people still have. We were told by the architect that we can have a laundry room, but only downstairs, we said no and so glad I did. It's upstairs but not a room, just a space for it, like a cupboard (kind of) so much more convenient.

Busybee5

Mon, Jun 19 2023, 2:55 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

Why papergoods when you have a dishwasher?

Because I only have a meaty dishwasher and I'm not putting it on for a few plates, and a bit of cutlery from one supper. Electricity here costs more than paperware. Plus it's a lot easier and quicker to toss the plates after supper than scrape them and stack in dishwasher. For Shabbos we like to use real so it's worth it.

The only time I put it on during the week is after making a batch of chicken soup, I fit big pots etc in when I'm done.

Busybee5

Mon, Jun 19 2023, 3:01 pm

Chayalle wrote:

I honestly don't know how you all work like you do. I would fall apart, honestly. Maybe I'm a spoilt Brit Wink

shabbatiscoming

Mon, Jun 19 2023, 3:03 pm

Rappel wrote:

It's not like the properties are the same. On any objective scale, that's obvious.

We're a bus ride away from Har Habayit, in the land of Hashem. It's prime real estate, and the price per meter reflects that.

Im going to disagree. I know people in america eho have homes with 3 bedrooms, 2 baths and a backyard. I have friends who have homes with 4 or 5 bedrooms and 3 bathroomd. How or why are such properties not comparable?