Inviting OTD family members to a simcha

amother

Mon, Jun 19 2023, 2:49 pm

We have some relatives who are no longer frum. We are making a simcha in a few weeks and are unsure if we are comfortable inviting them.
Reasons to invite:
*They are family, and that will never change.
*We don’t want to hurt them.
Reasons not to invite:
*We are embarrassed of them. I know we shouldn’t be, but we are. You can’t force feelings.
*The grandparents and other relatives are also pained and embarrassed by their presence so even if we’d be fine we must consider the other relatives
*They will not dress appropriately (we tried asking them previously but they didn’t) so they will technically be the center of attention. Instead of the focusing on the simcha everyone will stare at them. (Even if unintentionally. Kids are kids and some adults are still like kids.)
WWYD?

amother

Mon, Jun 19 2023, 2:53 pm

amother Slateblue wrote:

Who is it and can you have a very real adult conversation with them?

Aunt and uncle and cousins. No, we tried in the past. They want us to accept them with their new look and be okay with them coming dressed that way to our simchos. They don’t feel like “putting up an act.”

NotInNJMommy

Mon, Jun 19 2023, 2:54 pm

I wouldn't invite guests if I am not willing to host them with dignity. I also wouldn't want to be invited by people embarrassed by or resenting my presence--even family.

amother

Aubergine

Mon, Jun 19 2023, 2:56 pm

I am surprised you haven't been to other simchas of friends or neighbors who have OTD relatives attending. This has become the new normal, across all circles of the frum world. You are probably more self conscious because it is your family, but I am pretty sure you have been at others' events with similar guests and just didn't realize.

amother

Mon, Jun 19 2023, 2:56 pm

NotInNJMommy wrote:

I wouldn't invite guests if I am not willing to host them with dignity. I also wouldn't want to be invited by people embarrassed by or resenting my presence--even family.

They do want to be invited. They made that pretty clear. Seems like they enjoy the attention. (May be part of the rebellion)

amother

Tulip

Mon, Jun 19 2023, 2:59 pm

amother Aubergine wrote:

Most dress somewhat appropriately when attending family simchas.

imasinger

Mon, Jun 19 2023, 3:01 pm

Ok. So they'd like to be invited, but they don't want to adhere to family/community standards.

What if you put it on them? If you said, "we'd love to have you there, but only if you're willing to dress in accordance with our community norms. As far as we're concerned, you're still just as much you, but we'd like the focus of the day to be on the honoree, and your choosing not to fit in would remove some of that focus. Are you willing to put your affection for ___ ahead of your desire to be accepted as you are? If not, we'll arrange a separate time to celebrate with you. What do you choose?"

Last edited by imasinger on Mon, Jun 19 2023, 3:06 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Mon, Jun 19 2023, 3:01 pm

amother Aubergine wrote:

Did I say I haven’t seen it? I’m still unsure about inviting to mine for the reasons I listed above. Is it a given that I must invite?

amother

Mon, Jun 19 2023, 3:03 pm

imasinger wrote:

Ok. So they'd like to be invited, but they don't want to adhere to family/community standards.

What if you put it on them? If you said, "we'd love to have you there, but only if you're willing to dress in accordance with our community norms. As far as we're concerned, you're still just as much you, but we'd like the focus of the day to be on the honoree, and that would remove some of that focus. Are you willing to put your affection for ___ ahead of your desire to be accepted as you are? If not, we'll arrange a separate time to celebrate with you. What do you choose?"

Exactly!
So if their answer is “no. This is our new way of dressing and either invite us this way or don’t invite us at all”. Do I still need to feel obligated to invite? This is exactly my dilemma! How much do we have to accept if they’re not willing to bend for us?

NotInNJMommy

Mon, Jun 19 2023, 3:04 pm

amother OP wrote:

They do want to be invited. They made that pretty clear. Seems like they enjoy the attention. (May be part of the rebellion)

Do they know that you are embarrassed of them and resent their presence?

amother

Mon, Jun 19 2023, 3:06 pm

NotInNJMommy wrote:

Do they know that you are embarrassed of them and resent their presence?

I don’t resent their presence, I resent their new look and the way it takes over a simcha because they stand out in a very obvious way. See the difference there?
Yes, they know this and want us to be fine with their new look.

NotInNJMommy

Mon, Jun 19 2023, 3:07 pm

amother OP wrote:

Do they know you are embarrassed by them?

What is "the new look" vs. what is the "old look"?

imasinger

Mon, Jun 19 2023, 3:09 pm

amother OP wrote:

Why would you still need to invite them to the formal event? You set your boundaries. They made their choice clear.

Send something saying, "I respect your right to choose not to change how you dress, and we'd love to find a separate time to celebrate with you, how's Tuesday?"

amother

Slateblue

Mon, Jun 19 2023, 3:09 pm

amother OP wrote:

Then they are declining to come.
If they are not coming B’simcha and being respectful and following the rules of the host, they have no business being there. It is your simcha, either come and be mesamech the ba’al simcha or stay home (ie. don’t invite)

(And I am liberal MO)

amother

Mon, Jun 19 2023, 3:11 pm

NotInNJMommy wrote:

Do they know you are embarrassed by them?

What is "the new look" vs. what is the "old look"?

Dressing provocatively vs. tznius

amother

Aqua

Mon, Jun 19 2023, 3:11 pm

Please write on the invitation "kindly dress modestly." Modestly for the woman may mean just putting on a skirt and some sort or sleeve. Men and boys can wear a yarmulka with whatever they want.
If they wont comply with that, they shouldn't come.
It's about respecting the Baalei Simcha.
People are expected to display cultural sensitivity in every religion and follow the dress code of that event.
Im from a community where the religious level varies but people are respectful when they know the Baalei Simcha are religious and they come dressed appropriately.

amother

Mon, Jun 19 2023, 3:12 pm

imasinger wrote:

I feel the same but started this thread to see if I’m right. I was expecting at least a large percentage of people to write that I should invite anyway.

amother

Mon, Jun 19 2023, 3:12 pm

amother Slateblue wrote:

Thanks