Chossidmom's thread about childhood vaccines

amother

Firethorn

Thu, Feb 29 2024, 12:38 pm

amother SandyBrown wrote:

amother yellow thank you for saying common sense!!!!!!!

agreed that the system is very very far from perfect.
but you all sound downright loony when you start talking about how the big bad guys 'somewhere up there' are gleefully poisoning an entire world.

you know its like they never landed on the moon either and I can PROVE It.

Well, now that you mention it.
When I got started down this rabbit hole it did seem funny that back when there was so little technology they managed to get to the moon - communicate with them on the moon, but haven’t been able to go back since..? Why has buzz aldrin repeatedly said - we did not go to the moon?

Question. Everything. But yeah, I’m just downright looney.
But wait - when I was a robot and believed everything they said - I was 100% sane, covid came, and now I’m off my rocker. Must be long covid. LOL

amother

Steelblue

Thu, Feb 29 2024, 12:51 pm

amother Oak wrote:

How can you trust vaers if you don’t trust government? VAERS is part of the HHS. You can’t have it both ways.
And are claims underreported or they’re not done properly or were found to be false? Or the reaction wasn’t from a vaccination?

VAERS is literally the only avenue to report an adverse reaction. It’s a pathetic one, but it’s all that’s available. Nothing is done about what’s reported there because there’s no liability.

amother

Firethorn

Thu, Feb 29 2024, 12:58 pm

amother Steelblue wrote:

And to add to this - they make it awfully difficult to do so, if I may say.

amother

Scarlet

Thu, Feb 29 2024, 1:46 pm

Honestly, Yellow, I wouldn’t bother. The discourse seems to be more about whether being anti-vax helps you self-identify as “woke” and caring more about your children than us sheep moms who still vaccinate and don’t want to do research (by which they don’t mean learning about science or statistics and returning to the primary literature after taking a few college classes, they mean reading repackaged information from nonexpert or biased “expert” sources or watching YouTube videos from “vaccine injury victims”).

If people really want to believe that the world is out to get them, because that helps them feel like they’re some dystopian hero fighting the machine, you can’t talk them out of that narrative.

amother

Antiquewhite

Thu, Feb 29 2024, 1:58 pm

amother Scarlet wrote:

Just heard a quote from R' Asher Weiss in E"Y - there are 3 people he doesn't even try to argue with - people who wear techeiles, people who go up to the Har Habayis, and anti-vaxxers

amother

Scarlet

Thu, Feb 29 2024, 2:00 pm

amother Antiquewhite wrote:

Just heard a quote from R' Asher Weiss in E"Y - there are 3 people he doesn't even try to argue with - people who wear techeiles, people who go up to the Har Habayis, and anti-vaxxers

I read my husband my comments from last night to see if I said anything wrong and he was like “why are you bothering; this seems exhausting and you are never going to convince anyone.”

Trademark

Thu, Feb 29 2024, 2:23 pm

amother Scarlet wrote:

I read my husband my comments from last night to see if I said anything wrong and he was like “why are you bothering; this seems exhausting and you are never going to convince anyone.”

That's why I checked out too.

I can't understand how frum Jews exchange common sense hishtadlus and bitachon for conspiracy theories. Hashem never seems to be in the picture for them.

I can't seem to understand also how they think they are smarter than everyone else. Like they have a secret that nobody knows.

amother

Firethorn

Thu, Feb 29 2024, 2:41 pm

I don’t think I’m smarter.
I think I’m more aware than I was.
I wish someone would have been able to talk some sense into me, but I was just like you all. And nobody could have gotten through to me come hell or high water.
And now I feel like an idiot. And I wish I wouldn’t have blindly believed people who don’t really care.
I’m just doing what I should have done years ago, I’m doing my homework and I’m not just accepting what they say is true because God said this is the way. It’s not. I think right now I’m finally believing in hashem and not the cdc or the fda or anyone with letters outside their name just because they said so and what they say is what’s right and true.
Call me what you want.
The truth will come out eventually.
If covid didn’t wake you up, don’t worry, there will be something else that will do it. They’ll try again. But people won’t fold so easily.

And there’s a reason childhood vaccinations are at their all time low post covid - doctors - weigh in, people don’t trust anymore. For good reason.

Good luck. I’ve said my piece. I hope I can help at least one person. I wish more people had told me. I wish I was told just to question things.

I’m bowing out.
✌🏽

#BestBubby

Thu, Feb 29 2024, 4:30 pm

amother Scarlet wrote:

Hi all, just got home from picking up my kid + got dinner on. Will try to go through and answer questions. Will also ask my husband for clarification on anything that regards medicine/doctor stuff.

I know that everyone here is coming at it in good faith. I am too. I think that it is easy to get a bit frustrated having these conversations bc everyone cares deeply about the outcome, as we are all mothers. Professionally, it can also be frustrating for me because it feels like I always see people devalue or distrust people like me and my husband who only care about improving the world and helping people.

I hope that we can all give each other the benefit of a doubt. And please know that on the vax side, the vast majority of people involved in vaccine production and roll-out (including clinical trial leaders and doctors) really do care about the people who will be receiving the vaccine...which usually includes themselves and their own children.

All right. Anyway. I'll try to touch on the main things people brought up.

I would see it the opposite, as someone who also went a competitive route (PhD). In my experience, people who got accepted to my school/department (1% acceptance rate to my program), then somehow passed comprehensive exams, dissertation, landed a competitive postdoc, performed well in the postdoc, then landed our competitive job and continue to perform well in this job...are MILES more open-minded than other people I meet. In fact, challenging the conventional wisdom is precisely what helps people excel in science. Otherwise you would just be processing and reprocessing the same findings over and over.

Similarly, med school and residency etc weeds out people who would otherwise do poorly. Sure, success involves a degree of memorization, but it also involves clinical rotations which require you to creatively and flexibly gather information from a lot of sources (and use a bit of intuition and experience) to figure out a diagnosis and treatment. It's not as easy as following a textbook or running a standard battery of tests then giving a gold standard treatment. That does work sometimes! Like sure, if someone has high blood pressure, you toss a blood pressure med at them. But other times, you really have to think hard sometimes to get to the right diagnosis. Like for me, I have an autoimmune disease. Aside from the years it took for my doctor to find the right diagnosis, I then would be on a med that worked for a while, then it would stop working, and my doctor would have to think about what to try next.

My husband works in primary care so he's the exact person who is encouraging patients to get vaccines. That part, sure, is straightforward. But I have watched this man read the clinical trial data for himself. He's not just going "oh well uptodate said so."

Gently, as a BT, I can say that the secular world would also say that religious/frum people are more likely to be close-minded, uneducated, and just accept whatever we are told, too. We probably shouldn't resort to such generalizations.

Re: the ICAN letters

I didn't go through every single thing because it's a lot of info, but I did try to glean the most important bits.

One thing that stood out to me is that it seems people don't understand why the idea of solicited adverse effects is important. I think people who don't have a background in science or stats think that if anything could conceivably be linked to the vax 10 years down the line then it might be. Like if your kid gets vaxxed then later gets cancer, it COULD be from the vaccine.

But similarly, if your kid ate ice cream last year, maybe overindulgence in ice cream caused cancer.

That sounds a bit silly though, right?

We can predict what kinds of things are likely to be caused by vaccines, and in what time period, because we understand the chemicals at work and the ways they interact with humans and the ways things might go wrong. Vaccine injuries do exist and are well-documented. nobody is trying to pretend there are never side effects or other negative events that clearly link to vaccines.

Just that the autism your kid got at age 2 (a very normal age for signs of autism to emerge) is about as likely to be linked to the vaccines as it is to be linked to microplastics in your diet. (I'd argue the second explanation is way MORE likely, honestly.) Or to a medicine you took while pregnant. Or to genetics. All they can say is that they HAVE studied this, they have actually done this legwork, and autism does not relate to vaccines.

I know that's not the only vaccine injury people are worried about, but it's a common one so I'm using it as an example.

The point that I'm trying to make that I worry is going to be hard to explain is that a lot of the reasons we predict certain effects have to do with a detailed and expert understanding both of the drug at hand and of the human body. Those things only come with a medical or biological/biochemical etc education. You can't just throw out a random symptom and be like well it couuuuuld be vaccine.

That said, the FDA evaluates those too! All these things that there is no theoretical reason to think they are vax-related still get studied.

People take this stuff VERY seriously. Nobody wants dead or ill babies. I'm continually baffled and dismayed that people think we do.

In general, too, I think people don't quite grok statistics very well without studying it. The way these data get analyzed involves a lot of complicated mathematical modeling to account for the roles of random chance, of individual random variance (and non-random variance), group/demographic variables, etc etc etc, and then the kinds of models that compare the "universe in which this effect is likely to be related to vax" to the "universe in which the effect is likely unrelated" and use math to determine the probability that we are in one universe or another.

I guess you could say that anything over 0% probability we are in the "unrelated" universe is too high, but in that case there is nothing I will say that will convince you otherwise, because we think about the world in very different ways. I think it's tempting to want a hard easy black and white solution but, speaking as someone who does a lot of statistics, it's REALLY difficult to get someone to understand that we can actually have pretty strong confidence that a thing is true...but that the reason we know it is something that isn't as simple as pointing at the grass and going "green."

But I also think sometimes there are just people who wouldn't believe a vax was safe even if they shadowed it from start to finish and observed every step of the process because "who knows, They could have changed the vial label to trick me!" and to those people, I also won't ever convince them, because again we just do not think about the world the same way at all.

And all these doctors and scientists will say that a man can get pregnant.

They know it's a Lie, but if they don't say it they can't be a doctor or scientist.

Once people see such corruption, how doctors and scientists are forced to parrot government propaganda, all trust goes out the window.

#BestBubby

Thu, Feb 29 2024, 4:38 pm

Trademark wrote:

Like with Trump. Every so called "conspiracy theory" ends up being proved to be True.

That Russian Collussion was a Hoax created by Democrats was called a Conspiracy Theory

That the Covid Virus was created in a Chinese Lab doing Gain of Function Research was called a Conspiracy Theory.

When one sees the government and mainstream news LIE to the American People, you stop being intimidated by them calling views they don't like "conspiracy theory". That doesn't work anymore.

And that people don't trust vaccines is not a secret. It is based on medical doctors and PhD Scientists who are brave enough to tell the American People the Truth, even though they lose their careers.

GLUE

Thu, Feb 29 2024, 5:00 pm

amother Firethorn wrote:

Why when you look at the picture of people walking on the moon it looks like a light that you use on a stage in the background?
Why does the moon look like the dessert in Nevada?
How did the flag wave?
If Neil Armstrong was the first man on the moon who took his picture?
I could go on....

GLUE

Thu, Feb 29 2024, 5:06 pm

I have heard that Japan has been giving the chicken pox shot before the US
Even if this is not true Japan does vaccinate the chicken pox now.

amother

Aquamarine

Thu, Feb 29 2024, 5:40 pm

amother Scarlet wrote:

No one mentioned woke, or sheep, at least not on the last two pages.

amother

Aquamarine

Thu, Feb 29 2024, 5:47 pm

amother Yellow wrote:

If that were the case, it would be rampant.

Iirc, a case of polio in EY about a year ago originated with the oral polio vaccine that mutated.

#BestBubby

Thu, Feb 29 2024, 6:02 pm

Being anti Vax does not make you "woke"

"Woke" is following government religion of

Believing All vaccines are safe and effective

Climate Change will be the end of the world in a few years unless we give up all our private property, gas cars, stoves, eat bugs, etc.

A man is a woman and a woman is a man if they say so; men can get pregnant.

America is a racist white supremist country

lakewood mom

Thu, Feb 29 2024, 6:02 pm

amother Scarlet wrote:

Nope. Definitely not woke. We’re awake.
Woke us when you fill out paperwork by your doctors office…. The one who went to medical school… and you need to check off your gender at birth, your preferred gender now and your pronouns. No… we are not woke. But the same narrative that is telling you to trust the science is very much woke.
… enter the condescending and rude speech… no one was saying who is a better mother. I actually read peer reviewed reports and studies. I actually read the ingredients. I actually research the vaccine trials and studies. I’m not sure who you are referring to, but your accusations are right on track for those who speak to those who won’t vaccinate. Belittle. Degrade. Insult. It’s all par for the course.
This isn’t about the government getting us. It’s about knowing what is being injected in your childrens bodies. It’s about knowing the way they were tested…

lakewood mom

Thu, Feb 29 2024, 6:07 pm

Trademark wrote:

Wow. Now we know what you think of R’ Shmuel Kaminetzky and R’ Malkiel Kotler. And many other Gedolim and Rabbanim that don’t believe that vaccinating is the right thing to do after extensive research.

The ingredients and a black box warning on a vaccine isn’t conspiracy. It’s reading what you’re injecting your child with. This is literally hishtadlus. The research and studying.
What hishtadlus did you do? Listen to a doctor who might have pushed the covid vaccine on children??? Or tell frum boys that they should take the HPV? (Never mind, I know there are plenty of women here who are into the covid vax for kids and HPV for their frum boys who they’re assuming might be involved in anl sx)

amother

Oak

Thu, Feb 29 2024, 8:48 pm

lakewood mom wrote:

Hpv doesn’t come only from backside relations. It comes from skin to skin contact and sometimes the person who has it doesn’t have any symptoms.
And you never know who your kids will marry or what they’ll do. Better safe than sorry for the hpv vaccine. It’s also a mandated vaccine and schools don’t accept religious exemptions.

lakewood mom

Thu, Feb 29 2024, 8:54 pm

amother Oak wrote:

Not sure where you live- but BH it’s optional in NJ. A simple blood test can be done before your child gets married if you’re concerned. But- no… give the vaccine with the prob the most adverse reactions for a maybe…

amother

Aquamarine

Thu, Feb 29 2024, 9:18 pm

amother Oak wrote:

Only in DC, Virginia, Rhode Island and Hawaii...

And it's transmitted through zexual contact.