How to deal with inflexible/stubborn child?

amother

Wed, Jul 12 2023, 7:01 am

My 9 year old gets so stuck on things - it is making life so frustrating. For example, we were having a lot of trouble getting him to bed on time, so together we agreed that we would try for a (later) 9:30 bedtime. He was very excited and was cooperating. But when I told him this is just a summer bedtime, he got upset and said "if it's not going to be for school too, then it's not worth it for me to follow the bedtime." I tried explaining to him that he needs to follow the bedtime either way, that he'll lose privileges if he doesn't, that we can reevaluate his school bedtime at the end of the summer, etc.

But no. He kept repeating that it's not worth it for him if it's just a summer bedtime.

Another example is he was in the bath and delaying getting out. He had been stuck the whole night on the idea of us buying him a saw - asking us over and over. I came into the bathroom and asked him to start washing, but he just kept asking about the saw. I took the shampoo and started washing his hair. Then he got upset and said "now I'm not washing because you started washing me without my permission". Again, I tried explaining how he will lose privileges if he's not out and in bed soon, etc. but he just kept repeating that he's not washing bec' I washed him without permission.

These types of scenarios happen all day long. I have him scheduled to start play therapy with a psychologist soon, but would love any suggestions in the meantime from mothers who have children with cognitive flexibility challenges.

imasinger

Wed, Jul 12 2023, 7:18 am

It can be very hard to deal with this!

The good news is that there are many resources to help.

Look into Michelle Garcia Winner's Social Thinking materials.

Look into Ross Greene, and Jessica Minihan, and, probably most helpful in this moment, Nurtured Heart Approach

You'll need to read and learn more in depth, but here's a quick summary.

Re bedtime. He was willing to cooperate for the reward of a later bedtime, then was upset to learn that this was just a summer deal.

That shows that he can choose to cooperate if it's "worth it.". So, maybe sit down with him, and come up with some non-tangible rewards that he can earn. Special outings with a parent, choosing the family's meal or dessert one night, getting a day off a regular chore, whatever.

Re the saw and the bath. It sounds like your strategy was to talk or negotiate or threaten until you hit his brick wall, then execute what to him feels like the nuclear option. You might want to consider more humor, and more incentive as opposed to consequence. "I hear you really want to talk about getting a saw. I never have discussions about saw purchases with people who haven't finished their must-do list. It shows me that they know a thing or two about responsibility, which is necessary when using tools. So, if you're all washed and in pajamas in 10 minutes, we can see about a saw. Seesaw, get it?". Then, set a timer and walk away.

amother

Wed, Jul 12 2023, 7:53 am

imasinger wrote:

Thanks for the ideas! The thing is that we did Nurtured Heart in depth a few years ago and it was a total gamechanger for him. It sort of petered out recently though, and yes, I could restart it, but my issue is that it's almost like a crutch. Though we were successful at home with Nurtured Heart, in school where they don't do Nurtured Heart - he struggled greatly because of these problems. And outside of school whenever someone is not using NHA, he doesn't manage. So it's wonderful to modify his environment to help him succeed, but he needs to learn to listen to authority. He needs to learn how to get unstuck.

amother

Steelblue

Wed, Jul 12 2023, 8:02 am

I probably would have let him stay in the bath and activated some consequences he really wouldn't like if he wasn't in bed on time. Don't know if that's the right approach, though. Basically let him learn the hard way that he gets nothing from this behavior.

Re the bedtime, he doesn't want to do the deal, no skin off your back. Revert to the old bedtime and enact consequences if he doesn't stick to it.

mha3484

Wed, Jul 12 2023, 8:05 am

My son that is 8.5 (early nov birthday ie is on the older side of the age bracket) is very very strong willed. The explosive child helped him tremendously. He has a lot of anxiety and I think using the method gives him a sese of ownership over his life that he really craves. The way I see it is, the method of the book is really how an adult talks to another adult which is not a crutch that's how we solve problems in the world as we get older. We identify the problem and try to come up with solutions.

When it comes to bed time I take a different approach. I take the latest time he needs to wake up and count 10 hours back which means I try to get him in bed around 9-9:30. I think he really just does not need as much sleep as he used to. The power struggles have decreased too. I avoid power struggles like the plague and really try to allow him as much control in his life as I can while using my seichel.

amother

Wed, Jul 12 2023, 8:10 am

mha3484 wrote:

I've been trying to use The Explosive Child Method, but it doesn't help when gets stuck. For example, we had a whole conversation about what time he thinks would work for him to get into bed each night. I had wanted earlier, but compromised on 9:30. But even though we had resolved that, once an issue came up (school bedtime) that he got stuck on, that was the end. Same thing with the bath - I had wanted him to take a shower which was quicker, but we discussed and planned out the timing for the bath. But once he got stuck on how I washed his hair, there was no moving forward.

amother

Steelblue

Wed, Jul 12 2023, 8:12 am

amother OP wrote:

Let him be stuck, see how he likes it. Would he really want to sit in the tub all night, or would he come out eventually?

amother

Wed, Jul 12 2023, 8:15 am

amother Steelblue wrote:

Let him be stuck, see how he likes it. Would he really want to sit in the tub all night, or would he come out eventually?

I did exactly what you suggested in your previous post. He came out eventually on his own, went downstairs and ate and didn't go to sleep until 11:30 (without brushing his teeth). As a result, today he loses privileges. I just don't know that this is going to help. My day today is going to be a disaster with him melting down about his loss of privileges and I don't think it's going to help avoid power struggles in the future. He needs to learn how to get unstuck.

imasinger

Wed, Jul 12 2023, 8:17 am

The thing is, all parents have moments where their system doesn't seem to work.

The trick is to figure out whether it's the particular details of that day, or something larger and more systemic.

I'd say if NHA worked well before, it's probably worth starting up again for at least the summer.

Sometimes, kids just mature, or get a rebbe that really gets through to them, and you're lucky. Sometimes not, but you can still use it at home. The more practice he has in cooperation, the better.

ETA: I agree that some kids aren't capable of learning from consequences. I have one that would do the same negative behavior hundreds of times, regardless of the consequences, because he was impulsive like that. We had to find other systems.

Last edited by imasinger on Wed, Jul 12 2023, 8:19 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Steelblue

Wed, Jul 12 2023, 8:18 am

amother OP wrote:

How about you follow through with not giving him something he really wants, and telling him for not eating or brushing teeth or going to bed on time, he can't have the thing he wants. He will probably melt down and be unhappy. Afterwards, you can have a discussion about how unpleasant it is for him when he gets stuck, using the method in How to Talk So Kids Will Listen.

mha3484

Wed, Jul 12 2023, 8:21 am

For me, I would not have said anything about school its only July. I would have just gone with the summer bed time and discussed school related anything in August when its relevant.

I find I have to be careful with my son in that school camp is over this week so we talked about how we will be in 3rd grade and its really exciting but that's the end because change is hard and I dont want to ratchet up any anxiety when we still have 7 more weeks of summer. I don't plan on any more conversations about school until much later. I'm in summer mode and going to enjoy it lol.

When it comes to the bath, he mostly showers but if he wants a longer bath I really dont see the issue. I let him go last and he can be in there as long as he wants. Its not a hill I want to die on.

amother

Wed, Jul 12 2023, 1:50 pm

Ok so here I am dealing with the fall-out. When he came home from camp today and learned that his privileges were gone for today, he locked into defiant mode, grabbed my phone and tried to run outside saying “you took away my stuff, I’ll take away yours!” I wrested it back from him and he followed me, trying to grab it, (gently) kicking me and trying to bend my fingers. I went out to the car and he followed, but climbed into the front and started pressing all the buttons and moving the levers. All conversation on my part (you’ll make better choices today and hopefully get your privileges back tomorrow, parents are in charge; kids can’t take things away from parents, etc) did not even go in one ear. Finally I had to leave (for a few minutes) and he refused to stop, so I finally yelled at him that this is dangerous and he needs to get out. (Shockingly) he actually got out and went inside. I’m back in my driveway and am scared to see what he’s done inside, and scared to go back in and get assaulted. Help!

Update: sure enough, I came in and discovered that he ransacked my room. Clothing taken out of drawers, bedspreads on the floor, jewelry all over the floor, etc.

amother

Powderblue

Wed, Jul 12 2023, 2:04 pm

Honestly I think u did yhe right thing. Sounds like u needed to scare your kid so he realizes he doesn't have all the power. If u yelled without anger I think it's fine. Sometimes we need to scare our kids from doing crazy things. I know it's not the popular response and I'm no parenting expert. But it doesn't sound like your child needs choices, it sounds like he's desperate for limits.

amother

Steelblue

Wed, Jul 12 2023, 2:09 pm

amother OP wrote:

I agree, he needs limits. Violence, theft and destruction are red lines. If a kid is doing dangerous things, I would tell him that if he doesn't stop I'm calling hatzolah.
Don't let him get away with making the rules in the house. You're the parent.
Is he in any kind of therapy? Sounds like he could use help with anger management and regulation.

mha3484

Wed, Jul 12 2023, 2:14 pm

I agree with therapy. Has he had any sort of evaluation?

I think for some kids like mine who is defiant as a response to a lot of anxiety. There is a constant cycle of trying to earn the reward and then not loose the reward. It comes with a lot of intense feelings. My son cant handle it and that's where the acting out comes in. But you have to know your own kid and how to handle it. I really suggest getting an eval if you have never had one it can give a lot of insight into how to best approach his issues.