Why are we supposed to actively harm our health by fasting?

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Forum -> Yom Tov / Holidays -> Shabbos, Rosh Chodesh, Fast Days, and other Days of Note

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tichellady

Wed, Jul 26 2023, 11:10 pm

ftm1234 wrote:

You don't have to be unconscious. Honestly, I don't know anyone irl who was ever told she had to wait until she fainted before breaking her fast. But even if she did, I'm not aware of how fainting once or twice a year will harm your health. If I'm missing info on that, maybe you can educate me a little on how fainting will affect one's health?

I am confused why you brought up fainting. maybe I just misunderstood. I don't think someone needs to fast if they think they are about to faint

ftm1234

Wed, Jul 26 2023, 11:12 pm

tichellady wrote:

I am confused why you brought up fainting. maybe I just misunderstood. I don't think someone needs to fast if they think they are about to faint

They don't. But I mentioned it because some posters on another thread said that's what happened to them so I wanted to present the worst possible scenario and how even that wouldn't harm her health.

But you're right, there's no need to continue fasting if you feel so terrible anyway.

amother

Blue

Wed, Jul 26 2023, 11:14 pm

I saw a YouTube video by a doctor that fasting without even water is extremely healthy. It cleans the body and protects against a lot of illnesses. It’s like a reset for your body. I will look for it and post it here.

amother

Stonewash

Wed, Jul 26 2023, 11:17 pm

amother Acacia wrote:

I'm not a rav so I can't answer, but it seems you've chosen to hold by a rav who holds that way. My rav says I need to break my fast as soon as I get the first sign of a headache, but I'm also under a doctor's care for migraines.

This!

ftm1234

Wed, Jul 26 2023, 11:18 pm

amother Blue wrote:

I heard the same years ago. It would be interesting to read/watch it with sources though

bgr8ful

Wed, Jul 26 2023, 11:26 pm

amother Navyblue wrote:

The reason we take care of our health is because Hashem said so. It's a mitzvah.

And sometimes it's a mitzvah to do the opposite...

We are reminded that our body is not our own. It belongs to Hashem. And we are ready to do whatever Hashem wants, even if it is uncomfortable or painful. That's called Mesiras Nefesh.

this.
sometimes Hashem tells us to do something that seems to be the opposite of what we'd expect Him to want from us, but He created the world and makes the rules.

I think abt it sometimes in regards to the goat they would throw down a cliff on yom kippur in the times of the bais hamikdash (forgot the exact details but there was something with a goat getting thrown down). it would seem that doing that is tzar baal hachaim, but Hashem says that in that case thats what were supposed to do.
sometimes He wants us to be careful with our bodies, and other times were supposed to be in pain.

amother

Puce

Wed, Jul 26 2023, 11:37 pm

Are you under a doctor's care? My doctor told me to not even try to fast since missing out on even one day of my meds/prescribed supplements, many of which need to be taken with food, will cause long term damage and reverse lots of the progress we have already made.

I told my rav that the doctor does not allow me to fast and he gave me a heter.

amother

Goldenrod

Thu, Jul 27 2023, 12:36 am

amother OP wrote:

Ugh such typical responses.

Maybe that's because they're true?

amother

Goldenrod

Thu, Jul 27 2023, 12:40 am

amother OP wrote:

Just when people say "find a different rav" it feels a bit like heter shopping... and I know my rav's position is not unique so I don't even know where I would start looking

I wouldn't look at it as heter shopping, rather looking for a rav that is more proficient/specializes in this area. It doesn't seem like you feel your Rav understands your situation and how it affects you etc etc and are not ok with he psak, you really should find a rav who will explain it better to you or give you a different psak. You're not rav shopping, you're looking for a rav in this department, which you haven't found yet.
Hatzalacha!

amother

Blue

Thu, Jul 27 2023, 12:45 am

https://youtu.be/98AZyWQeIzg

Benefits of dry fasting research
12 to 16 hours. It’s amazing that the tora had the science in it. It’s another proof that it’s from Hashem. That being said it is just for relatively healthy people

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Jul 27 2023, 2:58 am

amother Acacia wrote:

Same. My rav said nobody should ever be fasting till they vomit or faint, if they feel it coming. My migraines can get very bad. My rav told me the same as above. And am so grateful that that is how my rav holds.

amother

Antiquewhite

Thu, Jul 27 2023, 4:49 am

Fasting on Tisha b'av is important but it's very different to yom Kippur and it's easier to get a heter not to fast.

One year when there was a heatwave, my rav put out a blanket heter for pregnant and nursing women who felt they would be adversely affected by fasting not to fast.

I always recommend people who feel they need a heter not to fast to speak first to a doctor to understand the effects on your health according to your individual situation. If the doctor feels it would not be safe to fast, you can then present that information to a rav.

Thu, Jul 27 2023, 6:03 am

amother Dahlia wrote:

Yep, same situation. I just don't get it. I almost had to go to the ER last time I tried to fast. And I couldn't even make it through the fast, but just attempting was enough to make me horribly sick. I can't imagine this is what Hashem wants from us.

You don't have to wait until you're "horribly sick". You can break the fast as soon as you get the first symptom of what you know from past experiences lead to feeling horribly sick.

B'Syata D'Shmya

Thu, Jul 27 2023, 6:59 am

amother OP wrote:

I am one of those who did not get a heter not to fast, even though it will cause me severe physical and mental distress. I'm seeing the posts all over this forum from women who were told similarly. Unless there's an immediate risk to your life, you have to fast. If you KNOW it will cause illness, you still have to start and get sick first before you have a heter to break it.

It's so difficult for me to understand. No it's not risking my life but why am I required to do a mitzva that harms my physical and mental health? That takes me up to a week to fully recover from?

I'm being vague here but it doesn't really matter my specifics, I've seen so many posts here with different specifics but the theme is the same: fasting will hurt me and I was still told to do it.

For those of you who are going to be like "well did you TELL your rav EVERYTHING? You have to ask the FULL SHAYLA" Yes, yes I did, and I'm happy for you if your rav is different but I know of so many others who got the same psak as I did with similar circumstances.

Is this really what fasting is supposed to be?

https://www.ou.org/holidays/hi.....-bav/

amother

NeonOrange

Thu, Jul 27 2023, 7:25 am

amother OP wrote:

Ugh such typical responses.

1) your Rav is wrong and your problem is that you're going to the wrong Rav

2) I know a solution that you surely don't know about and haven't tried that will solve your fasting woes!

3) you clearly don't understand what Tisha b'Av is all about, educate yourself

To those who offered reasons in a respectful way, I appreciate it, whether or not they resonated with me.

To those who are struggling too, hugs. And I believe you.

If you don’t want to hear ‘typical answers’ then why pose a question?
How old are you? Just wondering

amother

Ebony

Thu, Jul 27 2023, 7:28 am

It sounds like you’ve heard someone extremely strict who really doesn’t understand people. Because I’ve always gotten one easily when I needed one. Now thank God I don’t need one and I’m a really good faster. One, I was told I could jump myself if I didn’t think I felt good enough to take care of my kids and that was it. It was so easy. There is no such thing as it in just a little bit today. You either keep it or you don’t.

amother

NeonOrange

Thu, Jul 27 2023, 7:43 am

amother Ebony wrote:

Huh? On tisha bav?
Seriously?

amother

Wallflower

Thu, Jul 27 2023, 7:54 am

amother OP wrote:

Yeah, I didn't mean to put down your answer specifically, and I definitely agree with you about the bolded.

Just when people say "find a different rav" it feels a bit like heter shopping... and I know my rav's position is not unique so I don't even know where I would start looking

I am not one to go rav shopping, but there is a specific rav I call for any sheilos pertaining to mental health, because I know that our family rav is not so knowledgeable in that field. I got a recommendation of 2-3 rabbis from my therapist, and I looked into which one I align with the most hashkafically. You can trust your rav and look up to him, while also understanding that there are certain things that he doesn't understand enough about to be able to pasken well. I once heard that the more a rav knows, the more they can allow, and it does not mean they are more meikal, just that they are knowledgeable enough to know where the line is. A rav that is a little less knowledgeable will have to have a larger grey area...

DVOM

Thu, Jul 27 2023, 8:04 am

amother OP wrote:

I don't think we're being told to harm ourselves. Halacha very consistently rules against any sort of self harm, any perminant damage.

We are being asked to make ourselves uncomfortable. For this one day, we are asked to bring the discomfort we should be feeling for the loss of the bais hamikdash to a tangible, relatable level. We don't eat or drink, wear comfortable shoes, sit in comfortable chairs, engage in comforting activities (bathing, s-x), for 1 day. For some, that discomfort is mild and temporary, for you it lasts a week. I'm somewhere in between. Today will be a hard day, and I'll probably feel back to full strength by Sunday, Monday.

It sounds like your mixing up discomfort and danger. For most people, fasting is uncomfortable, maybe very uncomfortable, but not dangerous. I think we are so used to comfort that discomfort feels really scary.

There have been times when I've been told not to fast, because my health (mental or physical) was such that fasting could be dangerous. I trust that if someone were in danger, a doctor or Rabbi would tell you not to fast. For contrast, my relative, who had a major organ transplant a few years ago and is recently out of the hospital (admitted for complications and a minor surgery) was told that fasting for 24 hours is not dangerous, does not usually lead to dangerous dehydration, does not significantly suppress immunity, can in fact be considered a healthy 'cleanse', and he certainly can fast if he wants to (he very badly wants to!).

amother

Chambray

Thu, Jul 27 2023, 8:14 am

I live in Yerushalayim and my Rav ( as well as many of my friends Rabanim) hold that you need to break your fast if it's too difficult (like have a bad migraine etc).
The fast is not supposed to be easy- however, you are not supposed to suffer!

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