Avoda Zara in Fantasy?

amother

Wed, Aug 23 2023, 10:18 am

I'm a BT and MO, and I've seen plenty of MO Jews reading Harry Potter (which has magic, but doesn't mention gods/godesses) that I assume that reading a fantasy book about magic is not avoda zara.

But I was just reading another Fantasy book which takes place somewhere where there are temples to gods and godesses (it seems monotheism doesn't exist in the book) and priests and priestesses, and characters will say things like "I swear by the gods". And I was wondering if it is allowed for a Jew to read it? Btw, the hero of the book is an atheist, and the book is in no way promoting the avoda zara, it's just describing it...

amother

DarkViolet

Wed, Aug 23 2023, 10:31 am

It's not any different than reading Greek mythology...and I remember reading a few in my B.Y. high school. Obviously we knew it was just a myth about false gods.
(Btw, yeshivish people read Harry Potter, too! It always cracks me up when I see a reference in say Mishpacha magazine...which just goes to show how widely read it is across the spectrum of frum society.)

amother

Pansy

Wed, Aug 23 2023, 10:31 am

Guess it depends on who you are. It's not something I've ever thought about as being problematic. I don't start thinking the books I read resemble real life or dwell on them after reading them. I would rather read fantasy than so called 'jewish books' that discuss judaism in a negative light (naomi ragen anyone?)
Most fantasy books will have a religion or several built into the world. It's just natural to have it. Some are more thought out, some are more integral to the main plot and some are just a small part of the storyline as part of the world building.

amother

Wed, Aug 23 2023, 10:35 am

amother Leaf wrote:

I'm pretty sure you'll find that most Rabbonim will not say this is 100% Asur.

But you do need to answer to yourself if this enhances your connection to Hashem or takes away from it.

Your question is a good one. This particular book had 2 lessons (that stood out to me and helped me) which I would call secular lessons but compatible with Judaism. 1. It is useless to fell sorry for yourself, instead put all your energy into getting what you want. 2. Don't feel like you must wait for an authority figure to officially tell you what is right. If you learned alone and the hard way what is right, act on it immediately and confidently.

These were both issues I struggled with personally in my real life, and honestly reading this book helped me more than all the therapy I've ever had in my life (which isn't much because therapy has never helped me, so I tried a few times and stopped).

So I really want to like the books. I'm not sure whether I would be allowed to recommend to another Jew though.

bigsis144

Wed, Aug 23 2023, 11:17 am

My initial answer is:

Fantasy is fantasy, and especially fictional pantheons/magic systems on non-Earth worlds have little connection to avodah zara/witchcraft as practiced in world history.

—

My secret fear is that science fiction and fantasy have made me a more empathetic and open minded person.

I guess you could say that when I read, I hold a “suspension of belief”. I can “suspend” my Jewish faith and throw myself into the mind and heart of a character who worships one of several gods in a polytheistic world, or holds wildly different cultural taboos because they are fae or an alien culture with an alternate concept of gender or morality.

And I think that has affected my “emunah peshuta”. Sometimes I feel like if I was a “good Jew” I would be viscerally disgusted by things that are against halacha but I really think that being an avid reader has made me much more 🤷🏻‍♀️ and “an’ it harm none, do what ye will” about real life people who don’t share my religion or values.

So I do understand wanting to be sheltered. I feel like reading makes me a better human - intellectually curious and accepting of diverse perspectives - but maybe a worse Jew? I don’t know.

sequoia

Wed, Aug 23 2023, 11:27 am

An awful lot of human history took place before the advent of monotheism.

But literature is about exceptions.

For instance, in CS Lewis’s “Till We Have Faces,” the main character, while living in a pagan culture, seems to arrive at monotheism independently. Her final words might be interpreted as such.

Ridethewaves

Wed, Aug 23 2023, 11:41 am

I remember learning that it is assur to deliberately read or watch about the three cardinal sins (herog vall yaavor): murder, immoral intercourse and idol worship. I think it’s nearly impossible to find movies and secular books without at least one of these. But many Jews throughout the generations have given up on a lot not to take a part of these aveiros.

Aurora

Wed, Aug 23 2023, 11:44 am

I don't see why it would be assur. The gods in those books are about on par with the dragons and unicorns.

Truthfully, I also think it has made me a more empathetic person. I might not live as you do, but I can understand and respect that you have reasons for what you do, and even understand those reasons.

amother

Lightcoral

Wed, Aug 23 2023, 11:48 am

Ridethewaves wrote:

This is according to Rambam

However there is a difference between reading fiction and between downloading the New Testament onto your phone bc "you just want to see what it says" (dumped that guy like a hot potato, you're too old for an existential crisis)

shabbatiscoming

Wed, Aug 23 2023, 11:49 am

amother Leaf wrote:

I'm pretty sure you'll find that most Rabbonim will not say this is 100% Asur.

But you do need to answer to yourself if this enhances your connection to Hashem or takes away from it.

Maybe most but 100% not all. Im even sure that there are rabbis that read fantasy books. Smile

Ridethewaves

Wed, Aug 23 2023, 11:52 am

amother Lightcoral wrote:

thank you for the source.

Ridethewaves

Wed, Aug 23 2023, 11:58 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Maybe most but 100% not all. Im even sure that there are rabbis that read fantasy books. Smile

It’s not about about what percentage of rabbanim agree but about what your rav says and which derech is yours.

Aurora

Thu, Aug 24 2023, 5:38 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Maybe most but 100% not all. Im even sure that there are rabbis that read fantasy books. Smile

Here's a Harry Potter Haggadah written by a rabbi. https://www.amazon.com/unoffic.....59055

And a Megillat Esther commentary: https://www.amazon.com/unoffic.....c_dsk

The rabbi:
Rabbi Moshe Rosenberg is the spiritual leader of Congregation Etz Chaim of Kew Gardens Hills, New York, and a Judaic Studies educator at SAR Academy in Riverdale, New York. His writings on religion, ethics and Jewish law have appeared in Tablet Magazine, The Forward, The Jewish Week, The Los Angeles Jewish Journal and The Journal of Halakha and Contemporary Society, among other national publications, and his Harry Potter Club at SAR was featured in the New York Times. He lives in Queens with his wife Dina and their seven children.

There are definitely rabbis who read fantasy novels. One of my family friends is one also.

amother

Oldlace

Thu, Aug 24 2023, 6:54 am

amother DarkViolet wrote:

This yeshivish family doesn't read Harry Potter. Reb Shmuel Kamenetsky (he should have a refuah shelaima) told my husband that it's assur to hold it in your hand.
Mishpacha magazine doesn't really strike me as yeshivish.

amother

DarkViolet

Thu, Aug 24 2023, 7:21 am

amother Oldlace wrote:

I'd say that is the minority of yeshivish families that don't....just like the amount of yeshivish families with no internet access at home at all. Sure it exists, but it's getting smaller and smaller of a group.
I mentioned Mishpacha bec the writers who mention HP tend to be those who identify as yeshivish.