S/O How well did you learn the 3 Cardinal Sins?

amother

Wed, Aug 30 2023, 2:13 pm

So as a kid I was fully prepared to bite a bullet rather than bow to an avoda Zara. As I got older, I found out that you actually can’t kill your self, even for the 3 cardinal sins - if it’s a choice between that and being killed, you have to choose the being killed option but that in no way means su1cide. I also realized that they really don’t teach us much about the other two categories of shfichas damim and gilui aroyos. Like, If this is so huge that I need to martyr myself, shouldn’t we be learning the halachos of that?
Or was I the only one that didn’t learn this stuff in school?

Cheiny

Wed, Aug 30 2023, 2:16 pm

amother OP wrote:

Luckily, it’s doubtful you’ll ever need to make the choice,

amother

Marigold

Wed, Aug 30 2023, 2:19 pm

amother OP wrote:

I just don't do those things. Is there something more I need to understand about it? Are they grey areas and I'm not educated enough to realize it? (Legitimately asking).

amother

Mulberry

Wed, Aug 30 2023, 2:19 pm

As a kid I don't think I would have chosen to get killed over doing an aveira. I don't think much emphasis was put on this. Maybe it should have been. BH we live in a safe world right now.

amother

Springgreen

Wed, Aug 30 2023, 2:30 pm

amother OP wrote:

haha I think about this ALL THE TIME
We learned zero practical halachos about this. Like what does it mean to allow yourself to be killed rather than do those things? And what exactly is considered halachic avoda zara etc?

Trademark

Wed, Aug 30 2023, 2:33 pm

amother Springgreen wrote:

I used to wonder if this meant rape. Like if someone is going to kill a struggling rape victim do I struggle and get killed?

Getting raped is not an aveira!

You do what you need to do to survive, may we never know.

amother

Vermilion

Wed, Aug 30 2023, 2:33 pm

amother Springgreen wrote:

I used to wonder if this meant rape. Like if someone is going to kill a struggling rape victim do I struggle and get killed?

I always assumed not because Esther Hamalka didn't have to. A women is a "passive" participant in rape so she didn't have to give up her life. Don't remember the source...

amother

Springgreen

Wed, Aug 30 2023, 2:35 pm

Trademark wrote:

Getting raped is not an aveira!

You do what you need to do to survive, may we never know.

My point is that this wasn’t discussed in school. It could have been a three minute clarification of definitions.

amother

Cerulean

Wed, Aug 30 2023, 2:36 pm

It’s not that complicated.
Want to know what exactly comprises gilui arayos? Parshas acharei mos
Shfichas damim? Killing that isn’t for war or a goel hadam or hashkeim v’hargo
Avoda zara?
Pretty self explanatory. Serving something that had godly power attributed to it

In normal times one is required to give up one’s life rather than do any of those aveiros

In a time of shmad (we don’t determine what makes something a time of shmad, gedolim do)
Then one is required to treat any aveira, no matter how big or small, as if it’s one of the gimmel chamuros.

To be honest, I spend my time learning the halachos of lashon hara, kashrus, and working on my davening, emuna and bitachon, parenting and marriage.

It’s not that hard in day to day life to not do the gimmel chamuros

amother

Oatmeal

Wed, Aug 30 2023, 2:42 pm

I can't remember the source so maybe someone else can clarify but I've learnt that although one is obligated to be killed rather than commit these three sins, if someone is threatened with death of they don't do these three and so they do it then it's considered that they were forced and so not responsible for their actions.

amother

Cerulean

Wed, Aug 30 2023, 2:43 pm

Trademark wrote:

Getting raped is not an aveira!

You do what you need to do to survive, may we never know.

This is discussed extensively in relation to the megilla.
Esther was a married woman, but she had to have relations with achashveirosh.
The meforshim say “karka olam haysa”
She made herself into “dirt of the ground” basically. She allowed herself to be dragged to achashveirosh and didn’t lift a finger or put a bit of effort of her own (remember she refused all the perfumes of haigai?)
This way it was allowed for her to be metaher every single month and sneak back to mordechai
It’s very interesting!! We actually learn this from the trop over the words “ובהגיע טור אסתר בת אביחיל״
The trop over those words are מונח מונח מונח מונח
Showing us that she was refusing and was literally forced with zero effort coming from herself

amother

Razzmatazz

Wed, Aug 30 2023, 2:43 pm

amother Springgreen wrote:

My point is that this wasn’t discussed in school. It could have been a three minute clarification of definitions.

Schools give a basic explanation of each of the three, I don't see a reason for them to discuss it in detail. We don't live in a time of gezeiras Shmad Baruch Hashem, it would have been very hard to discuss this in a hands on way with applicable examples

Hidden

Wed, Aug 30 2023, 3:02 pm

amother Cerulean wrote:

And that's why when she voluntarily went to Achashveirosh she was in essence giving up her marriage to Mordechai because this time she was going willingly.
I feel like the amount of mesiras nefesh she had for the sake of klal yisrael is severely underrated, we don't appreciate enough what she did.

amother

Cerulean

Wed, Aug 30 2023, 3:20 pm

Hidden wrote:

Exactly!! And she did give it up
It’s so sad. She lived the rest of her life as the wife of achashveirosh. She saved the Jews at an insane personal cost
She didn’t have her marriage to the gadol hador or much communication with the Jewish community
I can’t imagine making the choice she did!!!

amother

Wed, Aug 30 2023, 5:47 pm

amother Springgreen wrote:

Right?! This is exactly what I mean. What are the little details I should know?

amother

Wed, Aug 30 2023, 5:51 pm

Cheiny wrote:

Luckily, it’s doubtful you’ll ever need to make the choice,

So this is where I have all these little questions. Yes, statistically j should be safe from most of these issues. But what if, chas v’shalom, someone holds a gun to my head and says, “sleep with me or I’ll shoot you”. I’m a married woman. Is this considered part of gilui aroyos?
And other questions like that. If I’m mechuyav to let myself be killed, I want to know exactly which situations call for it

amother

Ebony

Wed, Aug 30 2023, 5:51 pm

Now I have another question... I somehow thought I knew that a Kohen's wife who is raped by a non-J must get divorced, however not if it's a Jew. DH tells me both make her prohibited. (This is practical for me, I'm kind of terrified to go out myself at night...)