Taking (borrowing) kids money to pay for necessities?

Cheiny

Tue, Sep 05 2023, 5:16 pm

amother OP wrote:

Would you borrow money without asking permission from a teenage child to pay a credit card bill that will otherwise lead to high interest? I don't know whether to call it taking or borrowing because the intention is to pay back but there's no foreseeable plan in the coming months to actually do so.

Also, getting a 15 year old child involved in finances and explaining the need for money seems wrong because they shouldn't be thinking and worrying about finances at the age.

I had this conversation with my friend this morning. She feels they should just go into debt rather than borrow from kids. Her dh feels that debt at high interest is a financial death spiral and must be avoided at all costs. He doesn't feel comfortable taking from the kids. But he feels there's 2 bad choices and taking from kids is less bad. Any opinions?

I totally agree with your friend. The money should be borrowed from somewhere else. I know people who’ve done similar things and ended up never repaying. Not a good idea,

amother

Melon

Tue, Sep 05 2023, 5:16 pm

amother Violet wrote:

Yes. Regardless if the money was gifted or earned.
Taking money without permission from a child above bar/bat mitzvah, is no different than taking money from a stranger, neighbor, friend... and no different than a child taking money from you.

curious now if all the people responding this, if they are answering based on their feeling on this matter? and on what basis? bec it is actually halachically NOT stealing. see my post two above this one.

amother

Alyssum

Tue, Sep 05 2023, 5:21 pm

amother Melon wrote:

It is NOT stealing! ASK YOUR RAV! You might be surprised by the answer

I just asked a shaila and got a psak. From our normal (oot) right wing black hat Rav.

Halachically it is not stealing bec there's a concept of being an apotropos (google for more info) where you have long term guardianship over the money. And as long as you pay them back their principal amount it's ok to borrow etc while you have guardianship over it. (Even if they lose out on interest during the time you have the money.) and even if they are over bar mitzvah/bas mitzvah.

always good to ask a rov; however, on this one I would also say then ask a therapist as the posts show it has a very detrimental impact on the relationship.

and paying back with interest is very different than so called borrowing with zero ability to pay it back ever

amother

Alyssum

Tue, Sep 05 2023, 5:24 pm

And let us assume for the moment it is not halachically stealing...it would still have a terrible damaging effect on the relationship and does not make doing such a thing okay or the best moral or ethical choice or the right thing to do.
Even if it is not "stealing".

amother

Kiwi

Tue, Sep 05 2023, 5:25 pm

amother Alyssum wrote:

Paying back with interest is an issur deoraysa (forbidden Biblically). Even if they lost out interest when you borrowed. The poster was told she could borrow if she pays back WITHOUT interest.

That being said, OP doesn't have a way to pay back the principal. So it's a different story.

amother

Kiwi

Tue, Sep 05 2023, 5:28 pm

This might be a good way to think about it, OP:

You're struggling financially. You're in a rut that you don't know if you have a way out of. It's such a tough way to live.

But your children have a clean financial slate. They even have some savings to start off with. Don't you want to give them a chance to live their lives differently?

The few thousand dollars you get from them won't solve your financial problems long-term. But it could get them off to a positive start and potentially give them a different sort of life. Isn't that a gift you want to give them?

No judgment here. I know you're in a very tough spot. I was just hoping this perspective could give you some encouragement.

amother

Violet

Tue, Sep 05 2023, 5:31 pm

amother Melon wrote:

Afaik, from what I learnt, it is halachically stealing to take any money from a child above bar/bat mitzvah, regardless of how they received the money and regardless of how you're planning to spend it. Taking without permission is just like stealing from anyone else. Them being your child, doesn't make it halachically different.

amother

Melon

Tue, Sep 05 2023, 5:37 pm

amother Violet wrote:

well are you a posek? because I'm not sure what you learned but I asked a shaila and it is not stealing. this isn't taking money from someone, the difference is that you are their apotropos. meaning you already have guardianship over this money. This could be for any person I think. Your child, and orphan, if you are an executor on the will etc. from what I understand , if you are overseeing their money (in this case a child until they are an adult) you can do what you want (I.e. borrow it) as long as they get their principal amount back in the end.

amother

Violet

Tue, Sep 05 2023, 7:02 pm

amother Melon wrote:

We learnt this as the halacha.
Just because YOU go paskened differently, it does NOT mean that you can pasken for anyone else or that anyone else may use your p'sak.
I think it's best the OP ask a sheila and doesn't do anything based on imamother responses.
What does overseeing their money mean? In charge? I'm not in charge of my teens money.

amother

Melon

Tue, Sep 05 2023, 7:22 pm

amother Violet wrote:

I'm talking about money that was left for them as a yerusha and money that was given to them as baby gifts that we chose to save for them.

We aren't giving them thousands of dollars at their age when they are not responsible to handle the money. They will get it when they are adults or when they are engaged.

And yes ask a shaila, that was the point I brought up in my first post! ask bec you might be surprised that it's not considered stealing even though many are posting on here that it is!

amother

Melon

Tue, Sep 05 2023, 7:23 pm

amother Alyssum wrote:

how are you defining "the end"?
their inheritance at meah v esrim?
what if they need it or are counting on it at their chasuna? seminary? etc?

end in my opinion is not their inheritance! I mean whne they are an adult or whne they are engaged. (I would hope to be paying for their chasuna and seminary) so I mean when they are an adult and in college and want to buy their own car, buy their own house, get married, at this point they should know how much money they have and have access to it.

amother

Bisque

Tue, Sep 05 2023, 7:24 pm

While I find the halachic discussion interesting, I wouldn't advise anyone to take from their kids' money on the basis that it's technically muttar. Even if it is, do you really want a relationship with your child that is pegged to the minimal halachic requirements? Because FYI, the minimum for kibud av v aim is not very much.

amother

Melon

Tue, Sep 05 2023, 7:29 pm

also I would hope one wouldn't borrow without a means of paying it back. Obviously if you can't pay it back you have a different problem. I honestly don't think my kids would have an issue with us borrowing money that we pay back. They don't have that kind of relationship with money in our house. We pay for their things. They aren't working for their stuff. They do make some money in the summer but that's not the money I'm talking about borrowing. and I really really don't think they would resent it if they find out at some point (this is my kids personalities and this is obviously money that is paid back)

amother

Melon

Tue, Sep 05 2023, 7:32 pm

amother Bisque wrote:

I understand what you are saying, but I really don't think it would affect my kids relationships with us. We just aren't like that, it's hard to explain but I can't imagine them even caring in the slightest. They will hear that we borrowed it instead of taking out money that was more complicatedly tied up and think - ok, who cares. they are getting the money when they would get it anyway.

I guess you have to know your kids.

amother

Violet

Tue, Sep 05 2023, 7:49 pm

amother Melon wrote:

You can't know how your kids will react to this when they're adults, and you can't know what your financial situation will be like when they're adults & you need to repay.

amother

Melon

Tue, Sep 05 2023, 8:03 pm

amother Violet wrote:

You can't know how your kids will react to this when they're adults, and you can't know what your financial situation will be like when they're adults & you need to repay.

I think I mentioned I have the money it's just tied up elsewhere. I can get it tomorrow if I needed to. So maybe that's why it's a different scenario. But when I heard it might be stealing it was a perspective I didn't think of so I asked my rav. Now that it's not stealing I see no reason not to do it and don't see why my kids would ever care if I used their money because it was more convenient.

amother

Kiwi

Tue, Sep 05 2023, 8:09 pm

Amother Melon, I don't know your situation, but if your young kids have that much liquid cash, you really should consider investing it for them. My parents did that for me and I am very grateful. If they had left it in cash it's just going to drop with inflation to the point where it wouldn't be worth that much when they come of age..