Married DC Shalom Bayis

amother

Alyssum

Tue, Sep 12 2023, 8:34 am

mommy3b2c wrote:

So that they can come on imamother in 20 years crying about why the adults in their life did nothing to help them ?

There’s an interesting phenomenon on imamother in which some posters gang up on the op and doubt her story and continuously twist her words and rip apart her so she spends most of the time explaining and defending herself . Then , since she sounds defensive everyone rips her apart more.

Now, it’s possible that op is a lying psychopath and is making everything up and her daughter is really an angelic wife and the sil is abusive and op is an accomplice to his abuse . But there is LITERALLY nothing she wrote to make us think that . So just respond accordingly based on the op and assume she is telling the truth . Otherwise what is the point of responding ???

100%.

I'm just not sure if it's any op that everyone gangs up on, or it's an op whose difficulty is with her adult child. Certain posters will always identify with the adult child and vilify the adult child's parent.

amother

Snowdrop

Tue, Sep 12 2023, 8:36 am

mommy3b2c wrote:

100% agree with you. I wish that certain posters wouldn't be allowed to post on sensitive threads.

B'Syata D'Shmya

Tue, Sep 12 2023, 10:38 am

mommy3b2c wrote:

There’s nothing to interpret. Op says that her daughter refuses all help and is neglectful and that she just wants to help .
The responses:
stop ganging up on your daughter
Probably your sil is abusive
Just offer her help (op wrote many times that she’s offered help and daughter refuses.)
Why are you talking about this with your sister ?
Criticizing kids is not so bad
Which mother believes her sil over her own daughter ?

None of these responses are assuming that op is telling the truth. They are assuming that she’s exaggerating or lying .

Each person is writing with best intentions. If you post what OP posted and asked for help then expect a variety of answers.
Some will judge
Some will assume
Some will misunderstand
Some will answer thoughtlessly.
Some will be supportive but no concrete help etc etc

That is the nature of the beast when crowdsourcing .

I don't know you but I imagine you have trouble with opinions other than your own.

I

amother

Zinnia

Tue, Sep 12 2023, 12:07 pm

mommy3b2c wrote:

I'm asking you honestly: do you really think that a mother telling her kids that she wanted the clothing they used for a different day, is abusive and indicative of an emergency situation where the children are being traumatized daily?

I would almost argue that if that's the children's worst example of being mistreated, they're probably not being mistreated too badly. Kids who go through real abuse and neglect won't call their grandmother crying that their mother didn't approve of the outfit choice. It shows they're used to a certain high standard of treatment.

amother

Tue, Sep 12 2023, 12:15 pm

amother Zinnia wrote:

I an fascinated at how utterly you and at least one other person are missing the point. The point isn’t pants. It's yelling at a teenager who worked hard to get her two energetic, wiggly little brothers dressed, to do something nice for her mother as a surprise, and got yelled at for not reading her mind.

Perhaps you parent differently but most mothers I know would tell the girl how helpful she had been, and make her feel good.

amother

Zinnia

Tue, Sep 12 2023, 12:28 pm

amother OP wrote:

There's a wide, wide space between optimal parenting and crisis-level abuse that demands intervention. That space is filled by tired, overwhelmed, well meaning mothers who are doing their best. I'm sure you never ever in the course of your parenting criticized a teen who was trying to help, but to do so is well within the range of normal things that happen in the course of day to day life with a large family.

ETA perhaps you'd be better served by consulting (yourself, not your dd) with an actual professional who can better evaluate the situation.

keym

Tue, Sep 12 2023, 12:35 pm

amother Zinnia wrote:

There's a wide, wide space between optimal parenting and crisis-level abuse that demands intervention. That space is filled by tired, overwhelmed, well meaning mothers who are doing their best. I'm sure you never ever in the course of
your parenting criticized a teen who was trying to help, but to do so is well within the range of normal things that happen in the course of day to day life with a large family.

ETA perhaps you'd be better served by consulting (yourself, not your dd) with an actual professional who can better evaluate the situation.

I don't think OP is actually concerned about serious level abuse.

But I think this story that her granddaughters share adds a picture of a high level of rigidity, stress. That DD is functioning and running her house on very very high temperatures for lack of any other way to describe it.
OP seems to be putting together pieces and clues from grandchildren, SIL, her own interactions with her daughter, other relatives and sees a household that seems at risk of exploding.

That doesn't mean DD is abusive or mentally ill. But the house is in crisis. And if DD refuses to acknowledge that and get help, it can be really difficult.

B'Syata D'Shmya

Tue, Sep 12 2023, 12:44 pm

amother OP wrote:

And perhaps there is another side to this story. I honestly dont know. Perhaps its worse than you are writing or perhaps you dd was telling her children I need help with x, not y.
Perhaps your dd is not the best mother in the world all the time.
I wasnt.

Like I told you, your granddaughter needs your hugs and love yous.

You seem like you just want us to say you are right, you are right, you are right. You want to swoop in and interfere. No one is stopping you.

You posted because you wanted to hear other opinions no?
you may disregard and ignore any post that doesnt talk to you, and of course do what you want.

amother

Lightblue

Wed, Sep 13 2023, 1:01 am

amother Zinnia wrote:

The story about her DD yelling at a teen who was trying to help, not because she did anything wrong but because she didn't read her mother's mind and put her brothers in the clothes her mother had planned for that day, and instead put them in the clothes her mother had planned for the following day (these are not out-of-season or inappropriate, they are not mismatched - the only issue is the mother's plans/wishes) - I'm sorry but that DOES count as emotional abuse.

There, I said it. It's emotional abuse.

Now OP's DD may not be an emotionally abusive mother. If this is an isolated incident, and it could be, then it's not the biggest deal, because she will apologize and tomorrow will be a better day. But if this is happening on a regular basis then yes it crosses the line. There really is no excuse for it. And I say this as an adult who was emotionally abused this way as a teen and who still unfortunately sometimes talks this way to her own kids (when you are exhausted and running on empty it's very hard to change the tapes in your head, because when you are spent you run on autopilot). And despite the fact that I actually do this myself, I still say it is emotional abuse, BECAUSE IT IS. The only question is whether OP's DD recognizes that and is willing to work on herself and accept help.

amother

Lightblue

Wed, Sep 13 2023, 1:05 am

amother Catmint wrote:

I’m confused at first you said she only focuses on the kids and not her dh. How are the kids hurting, what is going on?

Of course the kids are hurting. Their parents' marriage is on the rocks. Their mother is either depressed or overwhelmed or both, she is snapping at them and saying things which she should not be saying. Even though she's focused solely on her kids probably very little of that is positive quality time. There is a lot of stress and tension and their mother is not really emotionally available even though she tries her hardest to be. The teens are taking on too many parenting tasks. No one ever feels good enough for their mother. (OP if you know details and can correct me, please do.)

Please tell me why the kids would NOT be suffering in the situation OP describes?

amother

Sapphire

Wed, Sep 13 2023, 1:07 am

keym wrote:

Pieces, clues, “seems” at risk - all also possibly a way to completely misconstrue a situation, rely on LH and cause a lot of damage.

amother

Sapphire

Wed, Sep 13 2023, 1:15 am

amother Lightblue wrote:

I am sorry you were emotionally abused lightblue, but I think it is making you read too much into the situation. My teens don’t dress our youngest but I would be delighted if they did. That is not taking on too many parenting tasks. And maybe it is not ideal that one of them tried and then the mother criticized them, but that may not be the full story. One person is getting vilified by OP and now many strangers on the Internet. We really don’t know the whole story. You even acknowledge this by asking OP for details which highlights how you have just run away with this story without knowing all the facts! I know a situation where a teen girl told people that her parents “always” asked her to look after her younger sibling. People worried that she was parenting this child, lots of accusations of abuse were stirred up. Nobody thought to verify this with the parents. Instead people needlessly brought in social services. The reality was that the teen was doing significantly less to help than an average child her age, less than her peers. We are taught to always believe the child, but be careful accusing other families of abuse. Especially when it is based on what really amounts to LH.

amother

Ebony

Wed, Sep 13 2023, 3:00 am

amother OP wrote:

SIL2 has been talking to me a lot about their shalom bayis, SIL feels lonely and marginalized. He has begged her to go to therapy with him but she simply shuts him down immediately. But I feel helpless here.

Yes. He is going to therapy.
she is angry at herself for not coping.
She needs help of all kinds. Therapy, cleaning help, time to herself.... But she refuses to accept it nor even to talk about it.
She says she is too busy. She doesn't see her friends either. She had a significant birthday a couple of years ago and I really pushed her to have lunch with me and she talked for weeks about how this messed up her schedule.

I definitely see the same issues and other people in the family (including my sister and a couple of the older children!) have come to me too. My sil is not grooming me or trying to get me to gang up on my dd. He is scared and sad, and I'm closest he has to a parent.
SIL came to me not to tattle but because he is desperate. Before he spoke to me, a couple of the older kids had started talking to me, and he knows this.
No. When he does that [help in the house], she gets angry because it's not done to her standards. Btw two of the kids told me this too not just sil.

I am taking THEIR side. And the children's side. I don't understand why, whether I called it shalom bayis or mental health, people think there are sides. So not the point.

Probably more than a little OCD. One of the older kids told me a story this week about how to surprise her mother, she dressed her two little brothers for camp. Instead of saying how wonderful she was, her mother got mad and told her she had planned for one of them to wear those pants on Tuesday, not Monday (which it was).

The point isn’t pants. It's yelling at a teenager who worked hard to get her two energetic, wiggly little brothers dressed, to do something nice for her mother as a surprise, and got yelled at for not reading her mind.

I very much agree. I am willing to be the korban if she goes for help but I don't think it will work. Unfortunately she doesn't have a role model or rav that she would simply listen to.

My sister approached me after noticing the issues.

eta: THIS UNDERNEATH IS NOT READ ADVICE, IT'S AN EXAGGERATION. I am not a competent professional who can give medical advice or diagnose!

I would personally go to her house one day, take her for an evaluation (against her will).
Find out if she is suffering from depression, OCD or anxiety.
Give her a very strong ultimatum something like; get help, take meds or sil will take the kids on a 3 week vacation without you.

eta: this is real advice that I am qualified to give:
I think she is really not doing well and everyone is suffering because she can't see herself objectively.
Please get off imamother and voice your concerns with a rav who is knowledgeable in mental disorders for a clearer picture of how to proceed.

Thank you so much for being there for them while they are going through this. It shows a lot about you as a person. I will daven that you find the right shaliach and that their whole family will have a refua sheleima, refuas ha nefesh and refuas ha guf...

B'Syata D'Shmya

Wed, Sep 13 2023, 4:21 am

amother Lightblue wrote:

You may be right but even if so, whats the alternative for these kids, to be put in child protective services? For the father to divorce the mother and take custody? For the grandmother to take them in?
If the OP hasnt succeeded in helping her daughter on her terms, maybe she should change strategies.
A strategy I have used before will be called sneaky here so I was reluctant to post it but if you are diagnosing emotional abuse based on the little info we have from the OP, then I will share it.
The grandmother can contact the grandchildrens school and tell them she wants to pay for help for her daughter but since the daughter is reluctant to accept, the school can call the mother and tell her she is eligible for help via some (new) program they have for parents of 7 children exactly between her childrens ages. Not based on finances but family size and ages. (Truthfully, the new program is sponsored by OP and called Invest in our Children) She can use the help in any way she wants - light cleaning (sweeping, dishes), folding laundry, taking the little ones to the park, giving the little ones baths for Shabbos, organizing drawers, coloring with the kids, reading them books, taking them to the library - whatever the daughter deems will be the most helpful at the moment.
The important thing is that the daughter is in control of help she wants. Its best if the hired person is an adult and not a teenager. The hired person must be careful to represent herself from the program and not reveal how it is financed. The hired person must understand that she is never to argue, criticize or try to reason with the OPs daughter, allow her to run her home as she wants, never be judgmental or point out flaws in the home even if they are obvious (unless its life threatening - like an exposed electric wire of course) ,she must allow the daughter to choose what help she most needs now and thats it, be totally amenable.

B'Syata D'Shmya

Wed, Sep 13 2023, 4:48 am

amother Ebony wrote:

I have read the thread over the course of development and here are my understanding of things;
Dd needs help, does not want help.
sil confides with OP mil that things are not what they should be, for him, sb and for the kids.
kids are not appreciated for making an effort and trying to help out.
there's a lack of everyday function in the house and a lot of tension.

It makes me stressed reading about, but also I want to cry for the horrible imas who so mindlessly spins the situation in directions so absurd, one after the other.
Yes, OP it would hep if you explain what she does all day, and what part of housekeeping is not up to par. Maybe give us some clearer understanding of her personality changes and when they happened. This could be a postpartum related issue, but we don't know, 'cause you didn't tell us how long this has been going on and how old her children are, etc.

I tried to summarize the new info you have revealed throughout the tread. I didn't copy everything, but what I think we should know.
I would personally go to her house one day, take her for an evaluation (against her will).
Find out if she is suffering from depression, OCD or anxiety.
Give her a very strong ultimatum something like; get help, take meds or sil will take the kids on a 3 week vacation without you.

I think she is really not doing well and everyone is suffering because she can't see herself objectively.
Please get off imamother and voice your concerns with a rav who is knowledgeable in mental disorders for a clearer picture of how to proceed.

Thank you so much for being there for them while they are going through this. It shows a lot about you as a person. I will daven that you find the right shaliach and that their whole family will have a refua sheleima, refuas ha nefesh and refuas ha guf...

You did a huge job on this, Yasher Koach (not sarcastically Chas Ve Shalom, I know you mean well).
A few points-
1) you cant FORCE someone to do an evaluation AGAINST HER WILL. unless she is a danger to herself and/or others or gravely disabled. Are you understanding from the OPs post that that is the case here?
BTW if a person is having a stroke or heart attack and you call an ambulance and the patient refuses to go, in most places, the ambulance is not allowed to force them.

2) You cant give an adult an ultimatum ( or threat - my interpretation of your advice) like that. What will be the consequences if dd doesnt cooperate? From what I read, OPs dd doesn't respond well to force tactics.

4) does SIL even want to take the kids on a 3 week vacay alone? Will he handle it?

3) "take meds" , are you a doctor? Are you prescribing? Have you met and evaluated the patient? Perhaps she does or doesnt need meds, but thats for a trained professional to decide.

4) Even if she does all that you say, there is a possibility that she is making the situation worse for her dd and her sil will divorce her and take the kids claiming whatever psych dx you wrote- depression, OCD, anxiety. BTW these are serious words, only a trained professional can diagnose. You throw them around - but would you like them said about you?

5) You think she is suffering because she cant see herself objectively and needs a rav who is knowledgeable in mental disorders. Hearing only one side is problematic. I am not saying what it is and you may be right, but based on the little information given, there is still room for doubt.

If you are right, then why hasn't the school or their pediatrician picked up on it? They are obligated by law to report situations like this.

The grandmother can also call Child Protective Services to do an evaluation if she suspects abuse, neglect or the like. She can do it anonymously also.

amother

Ebony

Wed, Sep 13 2023, 5:29 am

B'Siyata DiShamaya wrote:

I edited it to add disclaimer...the point being that she needs to get her dd evaluated and not to listen to us.