Savage Calls Autistic Children 'Brats-

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TziporahD

Mon, Jul 21 2008, 9:36 pm

I can understand why.

marina

Tue, Jul 22 2008, 5:12 am

Quote:

he actually had a brother who was severely mentally ill, he wrote about him in one of his books

You know, there is no such thing as severe mental illness. 95% of it is overdiagnosed and they are all brats that need better parenting. Rolling Eyes

Again, autism is rarely overdiagnosed. But let's pretend that overdiagnosis is really a problem in America, like Mr. Savage would like us to believe.

Here's a really important point. If a child has autism, there are therapies (ABA) that are most effective if a diagnosis is given before the age of 3. After 3, the therapies are less effective, although they could have some use.

So I don't really care that Savage is supposedly trying to educate us about overdiagnosing. Let a child be overdiagnosed. Who cares? Most conventional therapies ( ABA, floortime) are not dangerous for non-autistic children. There are currently no medications that will cure the primary problems of autism. So what is the big deal if a borderline three year old is given a diagnosis of autism and she is really not that autistic? She will not get medication. She will play on the floor with her parents and other kids and learn social skills. She will receive rewards for following simple directions.

And now balance that against a 2.5 year old child who is really autistic and needs this therapy desperately but their parents are a bit in denial and heard this talk show idiot telling everyone that autism is overdiagnosed.

Crayon210

Tue, Jul 22 2008, 8:00 am

That is outrageous.

You don't think it's terrible to give a child a label like that when it's not warranted?!

I have said I disagree with what Michael Savage said, but what you're saying is completely ridiculous. I don't think that parents would be happy to hear about overdiagnosing because the trade-off is that their kids get floor time. Rolling Eyes

gryp

Tue, Jul 22 2008, 8:15 am

TziporahD wrote:

Clarissa wrote:

- quoting Savage:

I'll tell you what autism is. In 99 percent of the cases, it's a brat who hasn't been told to cut the act out. That's what autism is. What do you mean they scream and they're silent? They don't have a father around to tell them, 'Don't act like a moron. You'll get nowhere in life. Stop acting like a putz. Straighten up. Act like a man. Don't sit there crying and screaming, idiot.'

I'm conservative, and I believe in free speech. I couldn't imagine a context in which that statement would be acceptable. Just in case there was a context in which they would be acceptable that I just couldn't think of, I listened to the broadcast. I disagree very strongly with those who are claiming he was taken out of context. He wasn't. He claims autism is a fraud and a racket, claims 99% of austism cases are misdiagnosed, and the problem is fathers aren't screaming at their children enough. Savage should have taken his father's advice of "don't be an idiot" because he certainly was behaving like an idiot when he made these remarks.

I think it is becoming too common for these shock jocks and other similar pundits from the left and the right to say very offensive things and then whine about their free speech rights being infringed when their comments anger others. Everyone has the right to say what they want, even if it is as ignorant and offensive as what Savage said, but when you exercise that right, you have the responsibility to accept the consequences. That's what grown ups are supposed to do. Too bad Savage's father didn't impart that lesson during one of his screaming sessions.

Tziporah, those of us who heard the entire show didn't blink at this comment because in context it makes perfect sense.
Savage spent almost that entire show enraged that pharmaceutical companies want to try a drug to lower cholestoral levels on 2 YEAR OLDS. That's where he started and he went on explaining for the trillionth time how drug companies are pushing their drugs that are not good for us, their side-effects are too severe, but many people take them without thinking twice. He brought in autism as a parallel example. There is no definitive medical diagnosis for autism and many professionals in the field believe that it is way overdiagnosed, which I can personally understand since autism is a spectrum and you'll have children who kind of fit in but kind of don't. There are schools pushing parents to sign on to their children having autism so funding will go to the school. There are doctors pushing drugs on parents and their children because the doctors are either under pressure themselves from the drug companies or being rewarded by the drug companies for prescribing their drugs. And there are parents out there whose children have been diagnosed but they themselves don't believe it's true. Savage is a biologist and has written books on nutrition especially for children. He is outraged that children are being dosed up in order to fit into a little box some person decided children should fit into. He speaks about this all the time. He does the same with ADD/ADHD (Ritalin) and Prozac and other depression medications. In this context, the quote he said makes sense. That misdiagnosed autism is not autism, and we need to teach children how to behave properly.

No one has to agree with Savage on autism or like him as a person, but someone who didn't hear the show should at least be intellectually honest enough to consider the fact that someone out there took his quote out of context for the sole purpose of making him look bad. They chose this topic purposely knowing how close it is to people's hearts, especially parents. Don't fall for it.
Media Matters is funded by_________? That's why they want him off the air. They already did it twice before.

Savage put a clip of himself from yesterday's show on his website, michaelsavage.com.

It was a nice show yesterday, anyhow. Savage doesn't get personal very often but when he does it's worth hearing. He dedicated it to his handicapped brother and had parents of autistic children and professionals who've worked with autistic children for many many years calling in to give their opinion.
The one thing I like about Savage's show is that he doesn't take callers who have nothing to say. Nobody calls up to blabber about just anything. His callers are always people who have experience in whatever topic they're calling up about and have a valuable opinion or insight to share.

gryp

Tue, Jul 22 2008, 8:22 am

Quote:

I don't think that parents would be happy to hear about overdiagnosing because the trade-off is that their kids get floor time.

Or be put 5 days a week in a special-ed class. I don't think any parents want their children in a special-ed class long-term if they don't belong there.
A child's image of himself is also severely affected from being labelled autistic when he is not.

gryp

Tue, Jul 22 2008, 8:28 am

marina wrote:

Quote:

Just last week my pediatrician had the chutzpah to mention that my 20 month old has an overly large head which is a sign of autism. Come on. As his pediatrician he should know that the child was crawling by 4 months, walking by 10 months, and talking at 13 months. Autism should not even have entered his mind, never mind came out of his mouth.

Your child has selective mutism issues. A pediatrician, when faced with a child who does not speak in public, has the professional obligation to consider autism as difficulty in communication and social skills are the hallmarks of this illness. You are free to disregard his suggestion, but he is obligated to consider it. Just like if someone comes in with a huge headache, the doctor should consider stroke, tumor, along with migraines and everything else.

My 5 yr old WAS selective-mute when he was 3 years old. That has nothing to do with my 20 month old, who as I wrote has been speaking loud and clear since 13 months.
When I reminded my pediatrician about how advanced my 20 month old is, he said, "Oh, well, a big head plus developmental delays is a sign of autism." Rolling Eyes

Clarissa

Tue, Jul 22 2008, 8:32 am

My son's speech therapist, who teaches autistic children, said that it's classic that parents don't want to hear or know that their child is on the spectrum. If a pediatrician suggests it's worth considering, parents should be grateful. Many pediatricians poo-poo parental concerns, and the child goes undiagnosed past the point when intervention would have been most helpful. When there was any discussion about my son's delays, we were told that we'd benefit from a visit with a qualified developmental pediatrician for evaluation. Also, our therapists told us that they usually know pretty quickly after meeting a child, but would never diagnose, as that's only done by specialists. But if a person says it's worth looking into, it's worth looking into. I don't think kids are routinely put into full programs without adequate cause for concern. According to my friend, whose son is autistic but on the milder side of the spectrum, getting him diagnosed early was the key to him being eventually mainstreamed into a regular school. Years in a special school helped him tremendously. He's doing well, but he is autistic.

Public statements, whether on radio or tv, have consequences. As I said before, what if one ignorant parent now gets angry at their child's condition, believing the child weak? It's not unheard of that these children are misunderstood and sometimes abused, because they have a condition that's unrecognized. And what if the next parent that gets a suggestion of autism by their pediatrician decides that it's often not even a real condition, but a plot by over-zealous pediatricians and the pharmaceutical companies?

I'm so tired of people who say and do idiotic and dangerous things being defended by something they did that wasn't idiotic and dangerous. A hundred good deeds don't negate one incredibly stupid and dangerous one.

Clarissa

Tue, Jul 22 2008, 8:35 am

By the way, a pediatrician I know knew nothing about the correlation between head size and autism, but it is one of the signs. A small head that rapidly grows in the first two years of life can be connected to being autistic, although head size in and of itself doesn't mean a child is autistic. It is one of many signs to be examined.

One of my kid's therapists saw one of the kids she treats doing something strange recently. A minor, but strange behavior that set off her bells. She suggested evaluation. The child is, indeed, on the spectrum. He's now qualifying for extensive services. I think she should get a medal, but somewhere out there, a therapist is getting yelled out by a parent who knows that autism is usually (99% of the time, isn't that the number?) misdiagnosed.

TziporahD

Tue, Jul 22 2008, 10:22 am

GR wrote:

TziporahD wrote:

Clarissa wrote:

Tziporah, those of us who heard the entire show didn't blink at this comment because in context it makes perfect sense.

A lot of people who heard the show were upset by the comments, so while you might not have been offended, others certainly were. Personally, I don't think his comments are the least bit appropriate, even if pharmaceutical companies were the ultimate target.

Quote:

Savage spent almost that entire show enraged that pharmaceutical companies want to try a drug to lower cholestoral levels on 2 YEAR OLDS. That's where he started and he went on explaining for the trillionth time how drug companies are pushing their drugs that are not good for us, their side-effects are too severe, but many people take them without thinking twice. He brought in autism as a parallel example.

Yes, I know. I do not think that provides an excuse for Savage to claim autism is a fraud or that 99% of autism cases are misdiagnosed, and the real problem is parents aren't screaming at their children enough. I don't think the example he provided of his father's behavior toward him should be held up as an example of good parenting.

Quote:

There is no definitive medical diagnosis for autism and many professionals in the field believe that it is way overdiagnosed, which I can personally understand since autism is a spectrum and you'll have children who kind of fit in but kind of don't. There are schools pushing parents to sign on to their children having autism so funding will go to the school. There are doctors pushing drugs on parents and their children because the doctors are either under pressure themselves from the drug companies or being rewarded by the drug companies for prescribing their drugs.

If this is true, it still provides no excuse for the way Savage expressed himself. There is no need for people to use such combative, divisive language to make a reasonable point.

Quote:

No one has to agree with Savage on autism or like him as a person, but someone who didn't hear the show should at least be intellectually honest enough to consider the fact that someone out there took his quote out of context for the sole purpose of making him look bad. They chose this topic purposely knowing how close it is to people's hearts, especially parents. Don't fall for it.

With all due respect, I am not "falling for" anything. I heard what he said, and I think it's both offensive and ignorant. I don't think saying it within the context of criticizing pharmaceutical companies or the trend of over-diagnosis makes it okay. I also think he is not a target because he's right wing. If a left wing pundit had said the same thing, he'd be pilloried as well. Savage has a right to say whatever he wants, but he also has a responsibility to accept the consequences of his speech.

{Edited because complete sentences are good}

TziporahD

Tue, Jul 22 2008, 11:17 am

Crayon210 wrote:

I agree with Crayon. I don't think Savage is right or even informed about autism, but I would be horrified if any of my children were diagnosed with a condition they didn't have. That's just malpractice.

marina

Wed, Jul 23 2008, 6:12 am

Quote:

many professionals in the field believe that it is way overdiagnosed, which I can personally understand since autism is a spectrum and you'll have children who kind of fit in but kind of don't. There are schools pushing parents to sign on to their children having autism so funding will go to the school.

I don't know of many professionals in the field who believe it is way overdiagnosed. I don't even know one.

The school funding argument is ridiculous. Schools are obligated to pay out much more in services than they get in government funding for autism. The court cases typically go the other way- parents arguing for their child to receive services that the school doesn't want to pay for. I have yet to hear of a case in which the school is legally insisting on providing autism therapy so they can get funding. Examine the financial issue more closely and you will see the major flaws in your /Savage's argument.

Quote:

I apologize for mixing up your kids and changed my previous post.

Quote:

Or be put 5 days a week in a special-ed class. I don't think any parents want their children in a special-ed class long-term if they don't belong there.

Again, this argument goes nowhere. It is completely illegal for children to be placed into any kind of special education classes without their parent's written consent. Any doctor can label a child with whatever he or she wants and the school can do nothing without parental consent.

Quote:

You don't think it's terrible to give a child a label like that when it's not warranted?!

I think the dangers of underlabeling completely overwhelm the dangers of overlabeling, much as a hurricane overwhelms a rainstorm. Better to err on the side of caution, especially in these days of malpractice lawsuits.

Motek

Thu, Jul 24 2008, 10:40 am

chany1 wrote:

I did not hear the show. But I do know that my son was diagnosed with Aspergers Syndrome. He is currently 13 years old and he is a genuis. Yes, he got lots of help. Yes, he's a bit interesting. But not aspergers.

What are you saying, that he was diagnosed with Aspergers but you reject that diagnosis?

***
Maybe Savage was reacting to something like this which was posted elsewhere on this forum:

"I have been researching Asperger's for the past 10 years. I am not a medical expert, but I do have a son who has (sometimes) been diagnosed as having Asperger's. I say sometimes because there are no conclusive "symptoms" for Asperger's. The guidelines keep on changing, especially for those (like my son) who seem to be on the borderline."

the "conclusive symptoms" business makes it sounds bogus, as do the changing guidelines which sounds silly

there are no changing guidelines for taysachs for example
there are conclusive symptoms for diabetes and MS and CF

gryp

Thu, Jul 24 2008, 10:45 am

http://www.breggin.com/

Crayon210

Thu, Jul 24 2008, 2:57 pm

marina wrote:

Quote:

You don't think it's terrible to give a child a label like that when it's not warranted?!

So your main concern is malpractice lawsuits.

Has nothing to do with the children who are misdiagnosed.

I think it doesn't have to be an either/or. DIAGNOSE PROPERLY. Why choose under- or over-diagnosing? You're paying professionals enough to evaluate and treat your child, for that money, they should get it right. Rolling Eyes

gryp

Thu, Jul 24 2008, 4:10 pm

See the link I posted above for the horrors of overdiagnosing children.

It's all about $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

Btw, Savage has posted on his website a few of the many calls he's gotten over the past few days from psychiatrists, special-ed teachers, and parents who agree with his assessment of the situation. For those who are interested in hearing.

Clarissa

Thu, Jul 24 2008, 4:18 pm

My son's therapists, who all work with autistic children, are furious. Apparently everyone has heard this thing by now. Even my mother called to ask if I'd heard it. I had two preschool teachers over for lunch today and they were talking about it, and saw friends the other day who brought it up out of the blue. So I guess the guy is getting what he wanted -- attention. FWIW, so far everyone is outraged, and nobody has taken his side, even the tiniest bit. I asked today's therapist about the possibility of over-diagnosis, and she said that this really isn't an issue in this community. Occasionally, diagnoses on the very mild end of the spectrum are lifted, but this is very rare. Also, nobody seems to feel that this has anything with the pharmaceutical industry at all, as the developmental pediatricians who diagnose autism have nothing to do with the pharmaceutical industry. The developmental ped we saw sure didn't.

gryp

Thu, Jul 24 2008, 4:25 pm

http://www.savageonautism.com/

The link to the clips to hear what Savage's real position is- not what Media Matters wants you to believe is his position. Also clips to hear some of the callers who have experience in this field and agree with him.

Talk Radio Network also provides a complete explanation on what happened here, and that they back Savage fully. As most people who heard the original show do.

cassandra

Thu, Jul 24 2008, 4:26 pm

Are autistic kids medicated? I always thought the treatment was more in the behavioral therapy area.

Clarissa

Thu, Jul 24 2008, 4:28 pm

The autistic kid I know has never been medicated. It was all behavioral therapy. He now suffers from OCD (not uncommon with autistic kids) and may be medicated for that, but I don't know. Nothing for the autism, though.

Crayon210

Thu, Jul 24 2008, 4:28 pm

He had some Haaaarvaaaard doctor on yesterday who agreed with him 100% (duh). I found it so offensive:

"Dr. Doctorsmith, aren't you a doctor?"
"Why yes, I'm a doctor, indeed I'm a doctor."
"And Doctor, what are your credentials?"
"Well, my medical degree is from Haaaaarvaaaaaard, I became a doctor when I graduated from Haaaarvaaaard, my opinions are those of a Haaaaarvaaaaard educated doctor..."
"So, Dr. Doctorsmith, you would say that as a doctor, you're qualified to discuss a matter like this, as a doctor would?"

Etc.

Puke

And Savage went on and on about free speech, blah blah blah. Yeah, you have free speech. But when someone's paying you to talk, they can also fire you if they don't like what you say. Or if the advertisers who help pay your salary don't like what you have to say. So enough of this going after his free speech garbage. Rolling Eyes

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