What do you do when your host breaks halacha?

csstb

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 5:09 pm

Aruch HaShulchan and Rav Moshe Feinstein are some pretty compelling names in the halachic process, and depending on how the oven was used, both would have allowed for the cheese in the oven.
See https://www.torahmusings.com/2.....oven/ for a good English summary, though Aruch Hashulchan is pretty well organized and accessible if you want an overview of the sugya along with his psak.

amother

Steelblue

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 5:39 pm

Ema of 5 wrote:

Things which are permitted within halacha are not leniencies. The light situation that you described could have been handled by someone ELSE taking your child, or you taking someone else’s child. It’s harder when you are in a situation and have no one to ask. Then sometimes you just have to close your eyes and ask after, for next time.

That was one of the suggestions given at the time. I think in the end they found a non-Jew.
Its always hard when in the situation - either because you dont know the other options, or because you are in the thick of it.

dancingqueen

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 5:53 pm

amother Wallflower wrote:

I guess we're outliers in that we wouldn't stay by someone unless we're sure of their standards and if we would it would literally only be to sleep and be in our room, never to eat or hang out with.

This response kind of sums up why we don’t really have many “mixed” communities anymore.

coloredleaves

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 6:33 pm

A lot of rabbanim will say when its family it is better to be lenient within Halacha and maintain family peace than to keep your standards and alienate family, especially parents. Many people overlook leniencies in their sorbets or in laws house that they would not overlook in others houses (with the ok of their rav) bc it isn't actually against Halacha even if it ain't their personal standards and it isn't worth the negative feelings. Some parents are happy to upgrade standards if they know to so important to their children, but some are hugely offended. Or the rav may tell u to discuss bigger issues with them and overlook smaller ones taht can be ok according to Halacha even if it isn't your standards usually. Prioritizing family relationships isn't going downward if it is still within Halacha .

Re hair for example, I've never heard of soemone not visiting family bc a female doenst cover her hair. Maybe the rav would say don't look at her when saying a bracha but I can't imagine a rav would say don't eat by them. Many rabbanim themselves have parents or in laws or siblings or aunts to grandmothers don't cover their hair. Certainly in flip our communities but also in yeshivish circles at times.

Last edited by coloredleaves on Tue, Oct 03 2023, 1:41 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Forestgreen

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 6:43 pm

Regarding the light- for either the child or a non Jew, in certain situations there is no one who will be mattir getting hanaa from it if it wasn’t allowed, and there are times there is no one who will allow it. This actually is something that many people aren’t familiar with. It is worth learning about this.

amother

Floralwhite

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 6:58 pm

I once had a similar situation with my in-laws. I went to them for supper and they served fleishigs. My mil made a few side dishes, so her fleishig stove was full. So she made noodles to go with the chicken on her milchig stove. She said not to worry, she used a milchig pot for it.

(We hold that stuff cooked in amilchig pot cannot be eaten together with fleishigs. I know others may not hold the same as we do, but that doesn't mean we can forget about our minhagim because someone else doesn't hold like we do.)

I called my rav and he said we can go there, but only eat what we know is kosher. For example, we can trust she cooked the chicken in a fleishig oven or pot. The rest, we can generally see where she cooked each thing.

amother

Orange

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 7:02 pm

its your in laws? why couldnt you say that in your OP instead of being so vague?
we are yeshivish, dh is in kollel. my parents are NOT frum. like at all. they have separate dishes and sinks in the kitchen bh. we eat MANY things by my parents we would never dare eat in our own homes, think certain vegetables, hechsherim...we consulted with daas torah and were given this psak.

tichellady

Tue, Oct 03 2023, 12:03 am

You know many people don’t have two ovens or two stove?

I think the real question is what to do if your host has different practices than you and you don’t know Halacha well enough to know if it’s ok or not? Ask a rabbi. You may be surprised to see what he says

amother

NeonPurple

Tue, Oct 03 2023, 12:04 am

amother Olive wrote:

When we had just gotten married, I had my husband ask his rav if it was ok if I didnt cover at home. The rav said it was fine. And my husband could daven or make brachas elsewhere.

Not everyone holds that a woman has to cover at all at home in front of her own husband.

I was not talking about his wife.

kermit

Tue, Oct 03 2023, 12:27 am

while we don't personally hold by this, and would never EVER do it in our own home, there is actually what to rely on for using one oven milchig and fleishigs if not simultaneously. today's ovens have fans which prevent a lot of problems of yesteryear.

I was surprised to learn this, and dislike it as it feels outside my comfort level, but I do have a relative that uses their oven for milchigs and fleishigs open (kosher food) and have been told explicitly/reassured by multiple torahdik rabbanim that for shalom I may eat in their home and it's 100% kosher.

chestnut

Tue, Oct 03 2023, 12:31 am

small bean wrote:

I only have one oven and use it for both dairy and meat.

If the oven is empty and preheated, I would make sandwiches in it. On Yom tov, it's constantly on so it's hot, and I would use interchangeably.

Uncovered dairy and meat food? One after another?

small bean

Tue, Oct 03 2023, 12:35 am

chestnut wrote:

Uncovered dairy and meat food? One after another?

Yup. In practice it almost never happens because either we are eating dairy or meat and we don't use the oven for everything. I just have to have the oven preheated...

amother

Wallflower

Tue, Oct 03 2023, 12:35 am

dancingqueen wrote:

This response kind of sums up why we don’t really have many “mixed” communities anymore.

Ironic because I grew up in a very mixed OOT community. And even though I hung out at my friend's houses all the time, at various Frumkeit levels and various hashkafos, I never ate or slept there and no one other than a couple friends that were close family friends would eat or sleep by me. In school, no one was allowed to bring in homemade food for this same reason. The attitude we grew up with was always "You never know what other families know so you just don't trust anyone."
You don't have to agree, but I do feel that the opposite is true. When we can be ok with other people not trusting our standards and not see it as a personal offense, then we can live together as a community.

amother

Lemon

Tue, Oct 03 2023, 12:40 am

amother Wallflower wrote:

Adults tend to socialize with meals, not playdates. It’s not about offending, rather it puts up fences which make relationships difficult.

amother

Bronze

Tue, Oct 03 2023, 12:42 am

Cheiny wrote:

Just curious, because I have this situation as well… how did you navigate never accepting an invitation for a full meal?

They always have guests over and my DH likes small meals. We eat and then I go over to their house to socialize while my DH sleeps