Names for body parts and bodily functions (merged)

Ozmom

Sat, Nov 06 2004, 8:30 am

Quote:

Rashi explains that "petzua daka" means his "beitzim" [lit. eggs] meaning testicles are injured or crushed, and "chrus shafcha" means that his "gid" is ripped. Gid (like the prohibition of eating the gid ha'nashe) is nerve or sinew or tendon, and is not a special word to name that private part

to quote from Chumash Devorim 23:2 on the word shafcha (not gid) specifically refers to the aiver see Iben Ezra that Shafcha is that organ from which pours forth urine and semen

In regards to the word Gid that is Rashis usage way of refering to that which the torah calls shafcha.

no where in Tanach is Shafcha used to refer to anything else except as it is used here to refer to the male organ, Rashi uses the term Gid which could mean as you said different things, but that has no bearing on the fact that the Torah uses this explicit term.
There is nothing unclean about that part.
Its not healthy to think of all these parts as "dirty" Private, yes but not dirty

Motek

Sun, Nov 07 2004, 6:39 pm

The Ibn Ezra uses the word "eiver" (limb, organ) which is how it is referred to all over, in the meforshim and halacha. He is explaining the phrase "u'chrus shofcha" which literally means "and a torn pourer" and he explains that this limb/organ, from which pour forth urine and semen, is torn.

neither the pasuk nor the Ibn Ezra refers to the "eiver" with a specific name! Ditto for Rashi who uses the word "gid" in the same way. These are all euphemisms.

Motek

Sun, Nov 07 2004, 7:58 pm

the Rambam, in Moreh Nevuchim 3:8 explains that lashon ha'kodesh is called kodesh because it contains no words for private body parts, nor for the act that leads to conception, nor does it have precise terms for urinating and defecating. Rather, other Hebrew terms are used euphemistically when someone needs to refer to these concepts.

The reason is (says the Rambam) that these are things that "ein ra'ui l'zachram" - it is not fitting to mention them, that they should be given names, but they are things that we need to be quiet about, and when the need arises to refer to them, we get around it by using euphemisms.

The Rambam goes on to say that the euphemisms for the male organ are gid and shafcha (the latter, because of its function, as I wrote in the previous post), and he explains the reason for the other words that are euphemistically used.

Yael

Mon, Nov 08 2004, 1:09 pm

motek, if I understand you correctly then you are saying that when you need to refer to private parts then you should use a euphemism. right?
so then when your child needs to be told a name she should be told a euphemism, which is the same thing as a baby name. but in general to refrain from using these words on regular basis.
if you agree, then there is nothing left to argue about.
have a nice day!

Motek

Mon, Nov 08 2004, 2:53 pm

Quote:

when you need to refer to private parts then you should use a euphemism. right?

right

Quote:

so then when your child needs to be told a name she should be told a euphemism

sounds from your question that you assume a child needs to be told a name
some posters question whether a child needs to be told a name

Quote:

but in general to refrain from using these words on regular basis.

right

Quote:

if you agree, then there is nothing left to argue about.

I agree. Hopefully, others agree too.

you have a nice day too Smile

Ozmom

Tue, Nov 09 2004, 6:17 am

Shofcha is a noun not a verb and Shofech would mean pourer, and of course the name for something in Loshon Kodesh relates to the function it serves

the words of Ibn Ezra are "Shafcha"- "ze haeiver"- "this is the limb" shemimenu Yishafeich maimov vehazera" -" from which pours forth urine and semen"

Its clear that he is not talking about the word eiver but defining why the Torah gave this limb such a name.

This is not unclean.
to use the type of words that people use today for swearing purposes or insults is dirty and considered "nivul Peh" , but anatomical and medical terms or even baby terms such as "pee" used for these body organs are not used in this way.
Children should not be educated to view these parts of their body as dirty or bad. Yes they should know not to throw around the words for fun, but to be able to call it what it is in the right context is not unclean.
A relative of mine was rushed to hospital because something was wrong in his aiver or scrotum

anyway I can just imagine if he were screaming in pain trying to describe the part of his body that was hurting without giving it a name or telling the doctor or carer 'its in my oso makom'.......and he was in incredible pain
throughout the Gemoro it is termed as "amoh" see for example nidah pg 13

As far as what the Rambam said I don't have that source in front of me
but not everyone Paskens like the Rambam on all matters.

Now Tachlis

Proudmom.
My son calls his part a pee, but my point is he knows what it is really called
My daughters call theirs a Pishi.

Motek

Tue, Nov 09 2004, 3:38 pm

ever hear of (or see) the vulgar "giving the finger"?

well, the word for the middle finger in Hebrew is ama and it is this word, as well as etzba - finger, which the Gemara uses as a euphemism for the male organ

the Rambam in Moreh Nevuchim is not paskening anything

you disagree with the Rambam on:

1) the word shafcha - what you think is clear, the Rambam does not

2) whether lashon ha'kodesh contains these words or not - the Rambam says it doesn't

3) whether we should avoid referring to these things, and if we have to refer to them, whether to use an euphemism

4) that the name for something in lashon ha'kodesh, which is its function, is the actual name for it - the Rambam disagrees as it just isn't the case

we say ozen for ear, and not a form of the root shema, and we say ayin for eye, and not a form of the root of lir'os, and so on.

it is you against the Rambam and Jewish practice throughout the ages, and there are no Torah sources that disagree with the Rambam on this as far as I (or the people I asked) know

I wonder why you find it necessary to reiterate the "dirty" "bad" aspect yet again. Do you think the Rambam's view:

Quote:

The reason is (says the Rambam) that these are things that "ein ra'ui l'zachram" - it is not fitting to mention them, that they should be given names, but they are things that we need to be quiet about, and when the need arises to refer to them, we get around it by using euphemisms.

is unhealthy?

as far as what to tell the doctor, the scenario you depict is purposely absurd but it doesn't have to be

the man (who was probably passing a stone) could have chosen a number of ways to get the point across without using the actual word. And what if the man was a recent immigrant and he didn't know the anatomically correct term? Do you think he wouldn't be able to convey what was hurting him?!

it's not asur to say the English term, and perhaps in a medical context it might be proper to use it, but that's not what this entire discussion is about. It's not reasonable to insist on teaching these words to children for the remote possibility that an emergency will arise and a person will be unable to communicate the problem.

Ozmom

Tue, Nov 09 2004, 11:16 pm

Quote:

as far as what to tell the doctor, the scenario you depict is purposely absurd but it doesn't have to be

the man (who was probably passing a stone) could have chosen a number of ways to get the point across without using the actual word. And what if the man was a recent immigrant and he didn't know the anatomically correct term? Do you think he wouldn't be able to convey what was hurting him?!

Don't be so sure
It is not absurd
it is a true story,
it was not a stone
it was not a man.
It was a boy, and it was way way way worse than a stone, so much so that he was rushed to the hospital and if he had not had that operation on time then ......Chas ve Sholom (I don't want to say it).
He was rushed to the operating room
This was not an age related condition, it could happen to a child.
The boy was writhing around in pain.
I don't recall the exact details of this condition but I recall reading about it in a parenting book and remembering my relative,
It was in that book in relation to that sort of scenario that they were saying this is why kids need to know the name of their parts rather than some made up term that only he and his family members know.

ForeverYoung
Guest

Tue, Nov 09 2004, 11:25 pm

Quote:

This is not unclean.
to use the type of words that people use today for swearing purposes or insults is dirty and considered "nivul Peh" , but anatomical and medical terms or even baby terms such as "pee" used for these body organs are not used in this way.
Children should not be educated to view these parts of their body as dirty or bad. Yes they should know not to throw around the words for fun, but to be able to call it what it is in the right context is not unclean.

this is correct!!!

as I said before, it's only as dirty as you make it.

Quote:

I can just imagine if he were screaming in pain trying to describe the part of his body that was hurting without giving it a name or telling the doctor or carer 'its in my oso makom'

good point.

P.S. Yael, I think, it's time to lock this forum too.....

Motek

Wed, Nov 10 2004, 10:04 am

Quote:

Oh cmon they can always describe it ... Dr's are trained to deal with all types of kids not only English eloquent speaking ones!

of course! the claim that everybody, young and old, must know the precise term for medical or other purposes, has no basis

ozmom - sorry for the lack of clarity
the manner ("it's in my oso makom" - and anyway, that's the woman's private part ... if you are particular about knowing the English terms, surely you should know the correct Torah terms) in which you described the story was absurd, not the story itself which I believed

forever - you are much mistaken, see Freilich's and RG's posts

Ozmom

Wed, Nov 10 2004, 8:11 pm

Um amother youve caught me out embarrassed

I'm not even sure what I've taught my daughter that its really called

I guess on a practical level the kind of concerns I would have in an emergency case would only apply to a boy.

Motek, Freilich, RG etc I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this topic.

As I said, this was an emergency scenario. Think its absurd if you want, but in any emergency I want my kids to be able to say straight out what is going on, I don't want it to be an issue of lets try to figure it out.'
When a child gets to an age that they understand embarrassment then it would be more embarrassing to have to describe where it is then to just say it in one word.

I say this from knowing my own child.
I have a child that takes ages to say things, especially when its embarrassing, stuttering and uming untill the message gets out. If in pain that child will have it all the more hard to say it.

On the topic of euphemisms how is a pee or pishi any less an euphemism than shafcha which you are saying is a euphemism?

rydys

Wed, Nov 10 2004, 10:04 pm

my oldest is a boy and we've always just called that area his bris--that's the term he still uses. when his sister was born he asked where her bris is and we explained that girls don't have a bris, so he said "oh, so that's her front tushy" and the name stuck. At some point my older 2 have each asked me what the real name is (they figured out on their own that we were not using the real name) and I told them straight out aiver and private part. Somehow they seem to understand intuitively to use the euphamisms.

I think its important for kids to learn the real names, but also to know that there is a time and place to use them. When I was studying to become a kalla teacher my teacher insisted that we teach the girls proper anatomical names because when they go to a rov they need to be sure that they are understood.

Nechama

Thu, Nov 11 2004, 2:19 am

You know what, This is getting ridiculous.
A girl's urine comes out of the same orifice as the area called her private part. The hole is in the same place.

If a girl is being molested it would be a good thing for her to know what to call the area she is speaking of. (Same of a boy.)
It is not necessary for a child to know the 'real' word. Only a word that will be understood by, at least, her/his parents.

Whether one uses the word pishi or tutu or whatever, there should be a different word for the front (private part or aiver area) and the back(rectum/backside area).
MOST parents do not have their kids walking around saying
"My aiver is a tad itchy at his time, actually it is my scrotum I think I have a yeast infection."
Or
"My private part is irritated near my urethral opening, perhaps I have a yeast or UT infection."
Or
"My rectum is tickling, do you think, mom, it is worms?"

Yes, I'm being silly.
A the child should be able to tell the parent specifically what it is that is sore, itchy, injured, tickly etc..
I prefer euphemism. Pishi, tushy, bris, tutu, peepee, whatever.

In general, a Jew tries to be careful in terminologies. We see in the Torah that Hashem uses "the animal which is not kosher" to teach us that at times one uses 'tznius' terminology, HOWEVER when the Torah is speaking halachically, the clear terminology is used (The treif animal).

Perhaps this is where we can take the lesson in 'proper' behavior from?
Use euphemism, unless being technical?