Is Kollel the root cause??

amother

Lavender

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 3:07 pm

So much of this is dependent on the individual man. My dh in kollel knows that he's am equal partner in running our home, spiritually, financially, etc. So he took steps to learn a skill (yes, instead of night seder one zman), he handles chores around the house, etc. He also has a work ethic, he worked summers as a bochur and he's fully aware that he needs to support us.
We're also willing to consider out of the box options like moving to an out of town kollel that pays well.

As much as this is a systemic issue, there are ma y things a responsible and motivated man can do while in kollel to take care of his family. I can quit my job tomorrow and iyH we'll be ok

amother

Stonewash

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 3:10 pm

amother OP wrote:

I don’t think marrying young is the root cause. Just like young kollel couples take advantage of those first few years of support/lower expenses so they can stay in kollel, they can take advantage of those first few years of support/lower expenses to proactively work on a plan for prnnassah

I don't think you understood my post at all.
You can't have your cake and eat it, too. If you marry young, you can't expect to live on a certain standard unless you have some source of high income which most early 20s people don't. However in the frum community young couples across the spectrum have certain expectations for how they start off their married life. They can do it because so many are getting help (and not just kollel couples). It's sort of like a crutch and it makes standards higher for everyone which only grow. It's not just about a job plan or career path, it's about understanding how to live within one's means and delay gratification for wants vs needs. If young couples had to do everything on their own, either they'd live much more simply or they wouldn't rush to get married at 21, 22, 23. I know very few young couples living on a level they could afford entirely on their own, whether it’s kollel, college, or just starting out.

You are only looking at this through the lens of the kollel world, but those of us who see things more broadly see it's a problem overall.

amother

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 3:11 pm

amother Obsidian wrote:

My husband was in kollel for 15 years BH. When he left Kollel because we were not making it financially I promised myself 2 things:

1. I would always work on myself not to bash anyone who is still in kollel (which is easy to do when you are not in it).
2. I would always work on myself not to "regret" the years spent in kollel due to financial difficulties.

My husband is very responsible, works hard for a living, and pulls his weight at home. However, his salary is very low even after working for a few years.

Look at your own situation. You were a willing and supportive kolle wife who supported her husband financially for 15 years. Your husband is responsible and has a strong work ethic and he willingly went to work when the expenses became too much for you. According to many here, you are the ideal kollel couple. Yet even you are stuck with the serious issues that are plaguing the yeshivis world today- your husband is earning far below his potential due to him being handicapped by the kollel system, your children presumably were/are sent to babysitters at a young age, you will likely never be able to stop working and focus solely on your family. You presumably have no significant money saved up for weddings, retirement, big unexpected medical expenses.

Now imagine the same scenario but the wife was not as willing and the husband was not as responsible. And it makes it a million times worse.

amother

Wheat

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 3:11 pm

amother Lavender wrote:

Your husband is doing exactly what he should be. He was made for this.

It does not take away from the issue that going into kollel is the new normal.

Your situation is not necessarily the norm. I think it's safe to say that it is actually the opposite. I'm not saying kollel isn't doable or shouldn't be done. We need it! Just not for the average man and woman.

amother

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 3:12 pm

amother Stonewash wrote:

I don't think you understood my post at all.
You can't have your cake and eat it, too. If you marry young, you can't expect to live on a certain standard unless you have some source of high income which most early 20s people don't. However in the frum community young couples across the spectrum have certain expectations for how they start off their married life. They can do it because so many are getting help (and not just kollel couples). It's sort of like a crutch and it makes standards higher for everyone which only grow. It's not just about a job plan or career path, it's about understanding how to live within one's means and delay gratification for wants vs needs.
You are only looking at this through the lens of the kollel world, but those of us who see things more broadly see it's a problem overall.

Maybe you misunderstood me. High standards is an issue for sure but it’s not one of the issues I’m referring to when I say that kollel is the “root cause” of many of the problems that stem from financial issues.

amother

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 3:14 pm

amother Wheat wrote:

Chassidim are actually doing very well with all of this. From what I understand, the men absolutely know that the burden of finances is on them. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it is very respectable in the chassidish community to work and to be koveah itim.

I think what OP is talking about it more of a litvish kollel system issue.

Yes exactly. Chassidish men are raised with a strong sense of financial responsibility and they usually succeed in meeting it despite them having an even worse education than litvish boys.

amother

Stonewash

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 3:14 pm

amother OP wrote:

You are still only looking at this through the kollel lens. I see financial issues across the board in every sector, and mostly what I see is people who got married young and struggled to get ahead, not necessarily and certainly not only kollel couples.

amother

Wheat

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 3:18 pm

amother Stonewash wrote:

I think what you are saying is also absolutely true. I think OP is just looking at one of the main causes which is the kollel system. Which is a system that encompasses a huge population. You must realize that the financial struggle is exacerbated for those who start off their marriages in kollel rather than college. There is often no plan in place to make more money and be self-sufficient.

B'derech hatevah a couple that is working towards financial stability from a young age will be better off financially than their kollel counterparts.

The problem begins when we promote kollel as standard. We need to promote working and koveah itim as standard. It doesn't mean we will erase all financial and shalom bayis struggles from the world. But oh my would it remove a lot of them.

amother

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 3:19 pm

amother Stonewash wrote:

You’re right, I’m looking at this through the kollel lens. I didn’t open this thread to start giving my opinion about what is wrong with the entire world financially. I’m talking specifically about serious issues in the yeshivish community that are a direct outgrowth of the mass kollel system. Issues which would impact a far less portion of the yeshivish population if kollel wasn’t pushed as strong for everyone.

I’d also like to point out that in my yeshivish circles, those of us who prioritized the husband being the breadwinner from early on in the marriage (even after 1-2 years kollel) are not struggling with those serious issues in the same way that my friends who prioritized kollel and only kollel are.

amother

Dandelion

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 3:25 pm

I'm relatively newlymarried to a very serious yungerman. We get no support from either side, my salary fully supports us. My husband is involved in our finances and is constantly thinking about our future financial health and working to secure it. He takes tutoring jobs, learns in an early morning kollel that pays, takes jobs in the summer, etc.
I think the issue actually stems from entitlement. Neither I nor my husband expect support from parents or other places. We will take whatever government programs we're entitled to but will make it work even if we don't get those. We think seriously about our financial future because we know it's not coming to us.
Couples who are sent monthly checks and don't think about where the money is coming from or what will happen if it were to stop are not learning to be responsible for the future.
Also, if we pamper our boys and do not give them responsibility or make them in charge of any finances, they will not learn these skills. From when dh started yeshiva, his parents paid tuition and dorm expenses and he was responsible for everything else. He made it work.
I don't think pointing to kollel is the issue. I think not teaching proper responsibility to young people is the problem

amother

Stonewash

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 3:31 pm

amother OP wrote:

I'm actually from yeshivish circles, although I didn't marry a kollel guy. But I have siblings who did. They are doing OK, even after a good number of years in kollel. Probably because they married a bit "older" (mid 20s) and the wives had finished school and already had well paying jobs that didn't need to rely on the artificially high Lakewood salaries--so they weren't "stuck" staying there, and at a certain point moved to oot kollelim that pay decently and have a lower cost of housing/living overall. They don't need to rely on programs, either BH.

amother

Pumpkin

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 3:33 pm

In my husbands family boys are not taught that because they learn Torah they are better than girls.

They are taught to clean up after themselves and to cook.
Full time learning is with talking the wife into consideration. That means family and support is steped up during and after pregnancy. Husband break comes out in time to help with bedtime.

English education is one place I see that makes a difference I'm very lucky that my husband was sent to one of those rare school that the boys can grow up to become tzadikim with a decent English education. That made it easier for my husband to transition to the job force when necessary.

Parenting is another area. B"h I worked in education related field and I was able to help my husband with parenting skills. I wish it would be the norm amongst men also.

Men who in 2024 don't share responsibility with raising children. Some do so but not publicly. I read many books of great rabonim who were humble. They were quietly seen broom in their hand. It should be done more publicly. I Think this is not all men it's family based.

amother

Hosta

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 3:34 pm

amother Hydrangea wrote:

The issue is also when the wife forgoes her right to be supported in order for her husband to learn...and the husband then takes advantage of that and doesn't support her, but also doesn't bother seriously learning in kollel.

It becomes taken for granted that the husband somehow doesn't owe the wife and children support, and that's a travesty and a direct violation of Jewish marriage.

This. I don’t think kollel men realize how much they literally owe their wives. Traditionally men were the “king of the house” because they did half the work a kollel wife does. Many kollel men actually have a sense of entitlement.

My own opinion- it’s not healthy for men to not have any real world responsibilities aside of learning. I don’t think it lends itself to good middos.

amother

Wheat

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 3:34 pm

amother Stonewash wrote:

This is awesome!!

Do any of the Rebbeim tell their talmidim to look for a girl who may be alittle older, has gone to school and can support themselves? Do any of the teacher's tell their students that if they want to marry a kollel guy they may have to get married later and be more financially stable?

I have personally never heard either of these things.

amother

Gladiolus

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 3:34 pm

Quote:

I would never say this to anyone IRL because it goes against the values of my community, but does anyone else think that the kollel system in the yeshivish world is the root cause of so many financial issues facing the yeshivish world today?

For one, the yeshiva system “trains” many (not all, but many) single bachurim to completely shrug off any inborn, masculine responsibility they feel as providers. This all but ensures that when they get married they will feel too incapable, scared, uneducated, or entitled to truly give their all to making a parnassah.

Second, the kollel system strongly encourages staying in kollel until it does not financially work. The problem is that by that point it’s often too late for men to become successful in a high earning career, because they don’t have the luxury of starting off as low earner or going to school.

Men are also usually a few years older once they leave kollel and it’s harder for them to put aside their ego to take a job that they feel is “beneath them”, they only want to start with the best and unfortunately their experience and skills don’t match up with their demands…

Anyways, I feel like a lot of the issues that stem from the financial issues facing the yeshivish community- the double income trap, babies being left at babysitters too young, families not making it…. Many of them could have been avoided if the kollel system wasn’t pushed so aggressively on everyone regardless of their and their wives individual temperaments and capabilities.

Am I the only one who feels this way?

I hear what you are saying but disagree.

My husband was in kollel for a few years (not in lakewood). He did have a degree, but when finances were tight and we decided it was time for him to work, couldn't find work. He ended up working for a year in a job he hated that had nothing to do with his field of study.

Once working, the guy is still getting more than a kollel paycheck--so yes it does help. Slowly they work up the salary chain to make more over time. So yes, they may not have enough for school, but a low earner is still more than a kollel paycheck. There are also training programs out there now that didn't exist years ago. 18 months for a degree or job training, etc

I know plenty that go to work after years of kollel and aren't lacking "masculine responsibility". I know some in chinuch and some in business and jobs in between.

And working doesn't mean financial life isn't a challenge. There were times when both my husband and I were working full time and barely making ends meet. You need to factor in tuition. It takes one whole salary if not more!

amother

Lightyellow

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 3:36 pm

I didn't read the whole thread but can I just say I am so proud and grateful for my kollel learning husband. He is not irresponsible or lazy, he is a growing man who is a king in his learning and the sterling way he treats me, my children, his and my parents. I work very hard and live with less but I am zoche to live the most glorious life. I was never supported and I'm not on any programs. With unbelievable siyata dishmaya I bought a house and support my family. Are we tight? Yes, right now we are. So are many people. I have kollel siblings whose wives made it big and kollel siblings who are poorer than me. No different than the rest of the world.

Don't lump my incredible and blessed life into a kollel issue. My children are so lucky to have such a role model for a father.

LovesHashem

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 3:36 pm

amother Celeste wrote:

Twenty years ao I thought that way but not anymore.

These days there are so many government programs that for a larger family there really is little financial benefit from working. My husband who is the financial industry in a community where a large precent of men are in kollel says he hears things like "I would love to get a job but I can't afford to" or "working is a luxury that I can't afford" all the time,

In that case the man shoukd work and the wife should stay home with her kids. I can't understand how Hashem wants us to send 3 month old babies out till 4 or 5pm.

Even a year old baby.

Listen I'm not judging anyone, we're all struggling in galus and doing whatever we can. But on if we're having a discussion about concepts (not getting personal) I strongly believe this is not ideal at all.

amother

Wheat

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 3:38 pm

amother Lightyellow wrote:

Did anyone personally lump him into a greater societal issue? Chas veshalom! Your husband sounds like his exactly where he should be. Not everyone's husband is though, and that's largely due to what is being promoted.

You should probably read the whole thread! Most of us are so into the value of men learning full time!