Issue with a certain chabad rabbi. Who to complain to?

amother

Honey

Wed, Jan 24 2024, 9:59 am

scintilla wrote:

I didn't read the whole thread but I think I saw all your responses, OP.

So I'm pretty sure you already got the answer to your original question which is, not really anyone to talk to, each Chabad house is like an independent business, the most Merkos can really do is take away someone's right to be officially under the Chabad name as they do in very extreme circumstances only.

Now as a Chabad person, I want to say that I appreciate everyone trying to defend Chabad however it's just the reality that every barrel has some rotten apples (out of over 4,000 shluchim it would be more surprising if there weren't any that people had less than positive experiences with!) and it doesn't need to be whitewashed that this shliach does seem to have been quite quite rude and offensive to OP!

OP I'm sorry you had to experience that, the matter of the money perhaps ask your rav if you should be doing anything different at this point but I do not fault you at all for wanting to be treated better and for wanting to get your money back that you spent on a service you did not and will not be receiving.

If you would like to pm me the general area I can look up for you if there's a head shliach there who would have some authority over this shliach and could perhaps talk to him but I honestly don't imagine it would help much. Just offering.

As a Chabad person, I couldn’t agree more! (If there are two chabads need each other, one of them is not legit)

amother

Cadetblue

Wed, Jan 24 2024, 10:04 am

scintilla wrote:

Thank you, thank you for reading this situation as it is. You're a true light in the darkness.

amother

Cadetblue

Wed, Jan 24 2024, 10:08 am

amother OP wrote:

I don't know why I'm posting this but I think he completely misunderstood my original question about the 2 similar chabad addresses and that threw him off. Here's the very last email he sent to my husband:

I try to work with you as a courtesy and you were difficult to please.

Now you want to take it into a personal

I don't believe you have any respect for Chabad. You Wana come and enjoy and pay for a service. This is not a donation you send. this paying for your meal

You sound very arrogant.

To cancel ask for a refund and to say I need the refund to go to your competitor. It's not ethical.

So now you decided to go claim PayPal will go that route

Some other people who where nicer got a full refund.

It seems that he is very competitive with the other chabad. He interpreted my innocent question about the 2 similar addresses as questioning him about his competitor so I can use the other chabad. I think that's why he said it's unethical. He's mistaken because I was asking innocently. I thought because the addresses are so close, maybe one is the shul and the other is a store or who knows what, but it's one single chabad.

At any rate I can see why he'd be offended by my question. He still shouldn't have responded louzy question, but at least I realize that it wasn't that he was being asked the same question for the upteenth time as many here ridiculously used as a justification. He though I was using him to go to his competitor. It also makes sense because he was a little derogatory to the other chabad. He told me they "copied" his menu almost word for word. Yes, they both list items like gefilite fish, chicken soup, potato kugel and chulent.

Anyway, in the interest of fairness (since I have the utmost respect for chabad) I wanted to include this misunderstanding that I believe sent him off the rails. It still doesn't justify his response but it's not quite as disgusting as I originally thought considering he completely misunderstood my innocent question about the 2 addresses.

Ok now I'm sure your dealing with the one we had a difficult time with.

Yes, the 2 chabad houses are very competitive. One takes it more personal than the other, one is nicer and a real mench then the other.

amother

Wed, Jan 24 2024, 10:11 am

scintilla wrote:

Exactly. If I can humbly say that our family has had the privilege of using the services of many chabad rabbi's during the last 10 years. We have never had less than an A+ experience with them.

What bothers me most about this thread is that some feel I'm attacking chabad as a group. I mean it when I say I think as a group they are the most special people. I had this one bad experience with one person.

amother

Pansy

Wed, Jan 24 2024, 10:14 am

amother OP wrote:

If you can find one word from me in this thread where I "smeared a sect" I'd appreciate if you'd tell me so I can correct it. I have not said a derogatory word about chabad as a group. Not a single word. And it's not because I'm holding back. It's because I have nothing bad to say.

That's why I don't have to go back and check the thread to see if I let something nasty slip. I have nothing nasty to say about chabad so it's impossible. But go ahead, tell me how I smeared the group.

Otherwise you owe me an apology. I hope you will respond to this.

Your title is “smearing a sect”. You don’t seem to get it and I’m not sure it’s even worth explaining to you because based on your responses I don’t think you will get it.

If you think a sfradi teacher wronged your kid titling your thread “issue with sfradi teacher” is racist.

Same thing with a satmar, yeshivish, Modox backed organization.

Especially now that you know that he doesn’t work for anyone - it is rude that you won’t change your thread title.

About “you owe me an apology” do you think people owe you things for asking you to change your thread title to something less rasist? wondering

Orchid

Wed, Jan 24 2024, 10:21 am

lamplighter wrote:

You did not saying anything negative about chabad or shluchim. Not once. There was another poster (amother yellow) who was not nice but you have kept it focused on the actual experience with this actual shliach.

The title was triggering in that it reads like "had an issue with a satmar shopkeeper who do I complain to?". Using a sect as an adjective to describe something negative reads like a smear. Maybe like a news article that reads "hasidic Jew found guilty of....."

But the "Chabad" descriptor in the title was central to her question, as she thought there was perhaps a central Chabad agency that manages shluchim. Unlike your example, you couldn't justify saying "had issue with Satmar shopkeeper" because everyone knows there is no central Satmar agency in charge of storekeepers. The fact that everyone is getting all defensive about a totally calm, rational question is just the first part of the problem. As a non-Chabad person who has never interacted with a shliach at all, I also thought there was perhaps a central agency in charge. Now I know there isn't, but OP's question is entirely valid, and there would be no other way of putting it in the title.

Back to the issue at at hand:
When OP cancelled, the shliach TOLD her he would refund the money if he could get a replacement.
But then set it up in a way that there would be no replacement (ie by not re-opening reservations).
This right here is the problem. He told her he would, but then he set it up in a way that he couldn't. Had he responded with her initial refund request with, "sorry, we don't give refunds," she would have had no further claim or complaint against him. The problem is he basically deceived her by saying he would give her a refund if he found a replacement but then set it up in a way that there would be no replacement.

Then OP asked him to re-open was not "telling him how to run his business" but the only fair way to proceed. It's pretty shocking that you're all justifying this! How would you like to be told you would get a refund as long there was a replacement, but the seller wouldn't accept new replacements?

OP seems calm and respectful the whole time and honestly, this guy seems very off. I would be greatly taken aback if I had a confusion on the address and they told me back LOUSY QUESTION.

As to the charity component of all this, it does get a bit murky. I would imagine halacha is on OP's side. They are running a business (even if the intent is to be charitable, or if other components of the operation are totally charitable), and both parties should be treating it as such. If rebooking is such a tircha, he can have a "no refunds policy." But he didn't and here is where he is wrong.

I'm sorry you're getting such weird flak over this, OP. The defensiveness is off the charts.

Orchid

Wed, Jan 24 2024, 10:34 am

Mama Bear wrote:

THe ironic thing about this thread is that it has zero to do with being a chabad rabbi, or chabad bichlal, or a rabbi bichlal. This is a catering/restaurant/takeout business purchase issue. Being a chabad rabbi here has no impact on the issue. (except for the question whether there is a central office to complain to, to which the answr is no)

It's actually 100% central to her question. She NOW knows the answer is no, there is no central agency, but when she typed the post, she didn't, so her question makes total sense as stated. For those people saying she should edit the title post now that she has her answer, that is the weirdest thing ever. If I say "MIL treating me unfairly" and then it turns out, the posters show how she isn't treating me unfairly, I am obligated to to edit the title? Weird.

Further, you're saying it's strictly a business issue but the people all upset at OP are the ones saying she should fargin because it's tzeddakah. OP would love to consider this strictly business, but no one is letting her.

amother

Wed, Jan 24 2024, 10:42 am

amother Pansy wrote:

Now that she knows that the answer is no I don’t understand why she can’t change her thread title and she thinks everyone “owes her” things wondering

If I made a thread called:
“Issue with sfardi organization”
And I asked who is someone influential in sfardi community that can help me get my refund and I was told the sfardi community doesn’t work that way… I would change my tittle and apologize for the offensive title.

Even if she thinks she’s 100% in the right (wich she does) the fact that it offends some people is a reason to change the title.

Does it really offend you if I say I have an issue with one single chabad rabbi out of a few thousand? Does that sound like I'm smearing a sect?

amother

Amaryllis

Wed, Jan 24 2024, 10:51 am

amother Pansy wrote:

Chabad is not a race and having an issue with a Chabad rabbi doesn’t make you racist.

amother

Hunter

Wed, Jan 24 2024, 11:29 am

Mama Bear wrote:

I'm Chabad (that's why posting anon)... and OP I didn't find your post racist and I understood why Chabad was in the title. I didn't think you were attacking all of Chabad. I also am not defending the shliach. I don't think he dealt with you respectfully and am sorry.

(Also, I am always surprised that many frum Jews who use Chabad Houses when they travel do not know that Chabad Houses are independently run, and I think you now understand this and hopefully others now know, too.)

But I think the idea that this is a "catering/restaurant/takeout business" is what is confusing to me. Because it just isn't that. As many have already mentioned, Chabad Houses do all their fundraising for their Chabad House. The purpose of the Chabad House is to support yidden less knowledgeable about yiddishkeit because every jewish neshoma is special and any single mitzva could be one that "tips the scale." While Chabad Houses in touristy locations obviously support Jews who travel there, it is not really their purpose (with perhaps the exception of some in southeast Asia that are there to support young Israeli soul-searchers who might be pulled into other religions). Just because a Chabad House offers baked goods, or take-out food, or Shabbos meals does not make it a "take-out food business"... that service is just one fundraising method for the entire Chabad House, which is non-profit organization and a shul.

To me it is comparable to the following (hang with me)... I am visiting a location and plan to use their mikva. I see on their website that if I donate $18 x 10 that they will send a "lovely stainless steel kiddush cup" as a token/gift or supporting their mikvah, so because of that I make a donation for $180 to support the Chabad House... and I am so happy that there is a mikva available in this far-flung location for me to use (plus who doesn't need another kiddush cup). My plans change, for whatever reason, and I don't go to the location so have no need to go to their mikva. I go to another community nearby and use THEIR mikva. I want to donate to this new community, but I need my money back from the first place (and, "hey, I never got that kiddush cup gift in the mail...."), etc., etc.

It just doesn't make any sense or logic to deal with this like a business transaction.

You may feel your situation is nothing like this, but it kinda is. When you pay for a meal at a Chabad House... or a Purim basket... or whatever it is you pay for, it is ALL for the non-profit. It is to support their services-- which are mainly to non-frum folks. It is not a business. I am so confused by this thread. I am pretty sure the money you gave for the meals could even count as ma'aser.... like when you win at a chinese auction, you get something out of it, AND many rabbanim would say the amount you paid in can still be ma'aser even if you received something of financial value as a result.

amother

Vanilla

Wed, Jan 24 2024, 11:37 am

amother Hunter wrote:

See, but this is exactly what many people have issues with.

If I order catered food for Shabbos at a fixed price, I'm not looking at it as tzedakkah money, the same way I would never use maaser money for it. I'm paying for my vacation food same as I'm paying for the hotel room. (Disclaimer: I've never done this anyway, just explaining how many view it.).

I don't think it's fair to dictate to others where to give tzedakah too. Especially if it's something which doesn't qualify for maaser money.