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Forum
-> Household Management
-> Finances
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amother
OP
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 Tue, Jan 23 2024, 8:49 pm
Why are so many of us struggling?
If the school (and yeshiva) system would have a subject called business, for approximately 2 hours per week, wouldn't a lot more people be a lot more financially stable?
When Rockefeller shaped the school system, he said the following: I don't want a nation of thinkers, I want a nation of workers.
It makes a lot of sense, because besides for very experienced doctors and lawyers, most regular people that hold degrees - even if they are very smart and educated - aren't very well off financially. The ones that are comfortable usually live off of investments or have their own practice.
Why are we all buying into this mentality? Is there hope for the system to ever change?
If more people would understand how business works, how financing, laons, and funding for businesses work, wouldnt more people be go into business?
Small example: I always knew loans and interest are a huge no-no. That was until I started working on my own business and saw how important taking out a loan was in order to grow my business. I would never have known this a few years back, and I feel like I lost out on a few crucial years due to lack of education in this area.
Is there hope? Or are most of us doomed to struggle financially for the rest of our lives?
I'm wondering what other imas think, and if I even make sense. It makes me so sad that we are so stuck in working for other people thinking that this is what financial stability is all about.
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scruffy
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Tue, Jan 23 2024, 8:54 pm
| amother OP wrote: | | When Rockefeller shaped the school system, he said the following: I don't want a nation of thinkers, I want a nation of workers. |
I assume he meant factory workers, not business owners.
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amother
Junglegreen
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Tue, Jan 23 2024, 8:57 pm
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You have a point. But being that Im working for ten years all I can say is that just like maturity comes with age, so does the knack for business. I can't see a class of the knowledge I have today being taught to 16 year olds.
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amother
OP
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Tue, Jan 23 2024, 9:05 pm
| scruffy wrote: | | I assume he meant factory workers, not business owners. |
Yes, that's what he meant. He wanted a nation of workers, which means he didnt want the school system to turn students into business owners.
A huge percentage of business owners are college dropouts, and people that haven't attended college in the first place.
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amother
OP
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Tue, Jan 23 2024, 9:07 pm
| amother Junglegreen wrote: | | You have a point. But being that Im working for ten years all I can say is that just like maturity comes with age, so does the knack for business. I can't see a class of the knowledge I have today being taught to 16 year olds. |
I fully agree that experience is the best teacher, but teaching fundamentals wouldn't hurt.
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amother
Junglegreen
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Tue, Jan 23 2024, 9:10 pm
| amother OP wrote: | Yes, that's what he meant. He wanted a nation of workers, which means he didnt want the school system to turn students into business owners.
A huge percentage of business owners are college dropouts, and people that haven't attended college in the first place. |
Like the Satmara Circle LOL
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amother
cornflower
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Tue, Jan 23 2024, 9:10 pm
Many frum people are in the top percentiles of earners. The problem is our lifestyle and how unsustainable it is financially. Not that we need to learn how to balance a checkbook.
My family is struggling to stay afloat with an income of 300k. Thats not normal.
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amother
Green
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Tue, Jan 23 2024, 9:11 pm
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The issue is our cost of living is so much more than the norm. If I didn't have to pay tuiton alone I would be a lot better off financially.
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amother
OP
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Tue, Jan 23 2024, 9:13 pm
| amother cornflower wrote: | Many frum people are in the top percentiles of earners. The problem is our lifestyle and how unsustainable it is financially. Not that we need to learn how to balance a checkbook.
My family is struggling to stay afloat with an income of 300k. Thats not normal. |
It is a huge issue. It's even worse when the income is capped at $150k per spouse with no potential for more, because both are working for other people. By owning a business the earning potential is unlimited.
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amother
cornflower
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Tue, Jan 23 2024, 9:16 pm
| amother Green wrote: | | The issue is our cost of living is so much more than the norm. If I didn't have to pay tuiton alone I would be a lot better off financially. |
Exactly. Tuition alone is an entire entry level salary. It completely knocks someone who could be upper middle class into the struggling category.
Add in that we live in high cost areas because of shul and eruv, kosher food, mitzvah expenses, and large families and bam, poverty for people earning mid 6 figures.
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amother
cornflower
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Tue, Jan 23 2024, 9:17 pm
| amother OP wrote: | | It is a huge issue. It's even worse when the income is capped at $150k per spouse with no potential for more, because both are working for other people. By owning a business the earning potential is unlimited. |
You can teach business from kindergarten but not everyone can run a successful business. You need the personality for it. This is not the solution.
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amother
OP
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Tue, Jan 23 2024, 9:17 pm
| amother Green wrote: | | The issue is our cost of living is so much more than the norm. If I didn't have to pay tuiton alone I would be a lot better off financially. |
Right. And do you get that were paying so much to a school system that teaches us nothing about finances at all?
Imagine they'd have a track where they would teach teens how important investing while they are still young is. Wouldn't it be nice to have investments that help us support our insane lifestyle? We aren't taught any of this.
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amother
OP
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Tue, Jan 23 2024, 9:18 pm
| amother cornflower wrote: | | You can teach business from kindergarten but not everyone can run a successful business. You need the personality for it. This is not the solution. |
It's not just business. Its about being financially responsible, how to invest money wisely etc. We aren't being taught any of this.
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amother
cornflower
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Tue, Jan 23 2024, 9:21 pm
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Investing isnt what it used to be. You need a lot invested to make a substantial amount in order to use on a regular basis. You cant just put it in for retirement if you are relying on it for the present. Plus you need the fortitude to push through when the market is bad and not everyone can handle it.
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giftedmom
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Tue, Jan 23 2024, 10:35 pm
| amother OP wrote: | Right. And do you get that were paying so much to a school system that teaches us nothing about finances at all?
Imagine they'd have a track where they would teach teens how important investing while they are still young is. Wouldn't it be nice to have investments that help us support our insane lifestyle? We aren't taught any of this. |
I learned this in school and it went right past me. Don’t remember a thing. I wonder if any of my classmates invested because of that class.
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Growing
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Tue, Jan 23 2024, 10:47 pm
good point
no easy answers
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amother
Seafoam
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Wed, Jan 24 2024, 2:15 am
Getting married young and then quickly having 6+ children (with expensive tuition for each child) is a pretty large factor in why many frum families struggle financially.
I guess the school/yeshiva system can teach these things to better equip future families to have better finances, but it’s not exactly the root cause.
Those that have received degrees are often financially unstable because they have student loans to pay off and have a hard time finding a stable job in this economy while they’re young. Nobody in the secular world is advised to have children until they can financially support them.
As time passes, it’s very common for secular families to become financially stable around their mid 30s-mid 40s. Investing and being a business owner can play a part but it’s not the main thing, usually. I’ve known secretaries (obviously not as high paying as a doctor or lawyer) to have total financial stability.
Secular families also usually have 1-3 children and only do so when they’re financially ready, so this also plays a huge role in how well-off they’ll be down the line in regards to money and even if they don’t have a very high-paying job. Also, most secular kids attend public school which is free.
Just speaking from experience. I grew up secular and eventually became frum and this is what I’ve seen. It definitely would be beneficial to incorporate more how to save in finances in school though.
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amother
Pumpkin
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Wed, Jan 24 2024, 10:09 am
| amother Seafoam wrote: | Getting married young and then quickly having 6+ children (with expensive tuition for each child) is a pretty large factor in why many frum families struggle financially.
I guess the school/yeshiva system can teach these things to better equip future families to have better finances, but it’s not exactly the root cause.
Those that have received degrees are often financially unstable because they have student loans to pay off and have a hard time finding a stable job in this economy while they’re young. Nobody in the secular world is advised to have children until they can financially support them.
As time passes, it’s very common for secular families to become financially stable around their mid 30s-mid 40s. Investing and being a business owner can play a part but it’s not the main thing, usually. I’ve known secretaries (obviously not as high paying as a doctor or lawyer) to have total financial stability.
Secular families also usually have 1-3 children and only do so when they’re financially ready, so this also plays a huge role in how well-off they’ll be down the line in regards to money and even if they don’t have a very high-paying job. Also, most secular kids attend public school which is free.
Just speaking from experience. I grew up secular and eventually became frum and this is what I’ve seen. It definitely would be beneficial to incorporate more how to save in finances in school though. |
You are correct as the financial issue is precisely because what is being *taught* as the only appropriate life style generally results in financial difficulty.
Most middle class secular children are raised to defer children until they are established in careers and are financially able to support their children. They make decisions to some extent based on the cost of raising children such as choosing to live in places that have good public schools.
Also college - even for a non STEM major generally pays off in terms of providing a relatively comfortable life for a typical non-frum family.
I don't know how you reconcile a culture in which the impact of lifestyle decisions on economic stability is actually viewed as a negative in terms of choices.
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amother
DarkRed
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Wed, Jan 24 2024, 11:40 am
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I feel like there’s also a basic lack of understanding of investing etc, and coupling that with men being so late to enter the workforce = starting at a much later date when bills are so high already. If a couple is able to invest 10, 20, 30k a year before bills are high, they are already able to generate passive income.
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amother
Honeysuckle
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Wed, Jan 24 2024, 11:45 am
OP I agree with you
Most college degrees get you no where, aside from doctors, lawyers, and engineers
Business is the way to go
Just as an aside, when I used to teach high school in mainstream BY schools in Lakewood, I created and taught a personal finance curriculum that dealt with a lot of this
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