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Forum -> Fashion and Beauty -> Sheitels & Tichels
Sad about daughter’s hair covering choices
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amother
Clematis


 

Post Wed, Mar 13 2024, 1:44 pm
OP I would feel the same as you.
Why not have a laid back conversation with her, ask her how she feels about the whole thing. Listen to her more than talk to her. See where she's holding, what she's thinking. Don't judge or lecture her, just a regular mother-daughter conversation.
Chinuch doesn't end but it takes a new form. If you bring it up in a non-judgmental supportive way, then a) you'll have insight as to why she changed and b) she can feel comfortable to bring it up to you at another point in time.
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amother
Cerulean


 

Post Wed, Mar 13 2024, 1:46 pm
Chayalle wrote:
You are definitely allowed to feel hurt and disappointed, but perhaps your children are the wrong audience for your pain.

Here's an idea, stick to what you know.
I said it once to my son. When he made some comment about how we have to accept his choices . And I told him very clearly that we love him more than anything but he broke our hearts and we will always be sad that he doesn't see the beauty in Judaism.
It's more generic comments that are directed to us- how we have to accept our children's choices.
I have never ever made my children the audience for my pain.
I sincerely pray that you never feel this horrific pan.
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amother
Grape


 

Post Wed, Mar 13 2024, 2:13 pm
amother Clematis wrote:
OP I would feel the same as you.
Why not have a laid back conversation with her, ask her how she feels about the whole thing. Listen to her more than talk to her. See where she's holding, what she's thinking. Don't judge or lecture her, just a regular mother-daughter conversation.
Chinuch doesn't end but it takes a new form. If you bring it up in a non-judgmental supportive way, then a) you'll have insight as to why she changed and b) she can feel comfortable to bring it up to you at another point in time.


You have no clue what ops relationship with her daughter is. This can end up being harmful and may cause her to back away from her mother even more. The daughter is an adult she doesn't owe her mother any explanations. We also don't know if op is being extreme and her daughter is showing just a little hair in the front, but that's more than the mother likes.
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amother
Clematis


 

Post Wed, Mar 13 2024, 2:51 pm
amother Grape wrote:
You have no clue what ops relationship with her daughter is. This can end up being harmful and may cause her to back away from her mother even more. The daughter is an adult she doesn't owe her mother any explanations. We also don't know if op is being extreme and her daughter is showing just a little hair in the front, but that's more than the mother likes.

I'm assuming that they made it this far intact and an easy conversation should be ok.
A Jewish woman covering her hair fully is not extreme.
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tichellady




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 13 2024, 4:13 pm
amother DarkMagenta wrote:
Maybe this a generational shift (not sure if you are older/younger) but I definitely have seen a shift in the past 15 years or so, and even see it here on ima, where people think that anyone making any comment about one's personal appearance is wrong and intrusive.

I definitely don't think a stranger should be commenting on someone's appearance. And I don't think anyone should comment about someone's weight gain or loss... But I was taught that we have a responsibility to support others in their mitzvos, including honest conversation if a mitzva isn't being adhered to, and I was taught that in regard to tznius and hair covering (specifically) that discussion had to come from another female, who was a close friend or family member. In other words, it is mom or a close friend's RESPONSIBILITY to help her in tznius.

The daughter having hair partially uncovered is not the norm in their community, as OP explained. I believe she said that no one does that... so it is a very clear statement to the community (whether daughter intends it as such, or not).

I actually find it surprising that a mother would 1) shop (and presumably purchase) shietels, 2) all close women relatives are covering fully, and 3) husband is in kollel... yet when she started partially covering mom DIDN'T her about it to see if everything was okay? She could be having headaches, hair loss, etc. Maybe the husband DID push for it (who knows) and she actually feels terrible about it and wants to cover fully. Maybe she is struggling with Yiddishkeit or the new marriage and WANTS someone to talk to about it with advice for the adjustment to married life....

Why is even talking about it not okay? It is not overbearing to gently ask what is up.


It’s fine to have a conversation if you can listen and not be judgmental. Op sounds too emotional for that right now. She needs to be willing to hear things she may not like for that to work
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tichellady




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 13 2024, 4:15 pm
amother Saddlebrown wrote:
I have a different perspective to most people here.

You do not have to bottle up your feelings, and if you do, it is likely they will explode in a way that you have no control over. It is possible that one day you will say something that will make her realize how hurt you were and how your loving attitude to her was always covering a layer of hurt, making her doubt your relationship forever.

I would advise you to find a time to say something to her. Say it, say it once, and tell her you don't plan on discussing it again. Just tell her that it's on your mind and you want to say it once. And then, LEAVE IT ALONE forever.

Don't have fake relationship with your daughter, that is truly toxic.


I’m confused why her hair covering has to frame their relationship. Why is this personal and hurtful? It likely has nothing to do with her mother
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tichellady




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 13 2024, 4:29 pm
amother Cerulean wrote:
Here's an idea, stick to what you know.
I said it once to my son. When he made some comment about how we have to accept his choices . And I told him very clearly that we love him more than anything but he broke our hearts and we will always be sad that he doesn't see the beauty in Judaism.
It's more generic comments that are directed to us- how we have to accept our children's choices.
I have never ever made my children the audience for my pain.
I sincerely pray that you never feel this horrific pan.


It sounded like you were complaining to your children about their siblings not being frum and I think Chayalle was suggesting that may not be healthy for them or you . I’m sorry for your situation and your pain and I hope you find some comfort.
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amother
Vanilla


 

Post Wed, Mar 13 2024, 4:43 pm
Whoa, whoa, whoa, hold the phone! I hear and understand your disappointment, but IMO you're both overdramatising and doing your dd an injustice by extrapolating her haircovering choice to her entire commitment to Yiddishkeit. You're looking at ONE element--and an element that is new and strange and a struggle for many people. Has she relaxed her kashrus? Her Shabbos observance? Her davening, her overall tznius, her giving of tzedaka? Not only that, but she hasn't entirely rejected covering hair; all she's done is chosen to be somewhat more lenient than you are.

Quite honestly, your job is done. You bring up a child and try to make them a carbon copy of yourself, but that's all you can do. If your dc decides not to be a carbon copy of you, you have no say in the matter. Your dd is her own woman now, and her choices are her own. You're free to feel disappointed but I wouldn't say anything to your dd. It's really none of your business.

How much of this really has to do with all the money you spent on sheitlach that she's not wearing?
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amother
Saddlebrown


 

Post Wed, Mar 13 2024, 4:50 pm
tichellady wrote:
I’m confused why her hair covering has to frame their relationship. Why is this personal and hurtful? It likely has nothing to do with her mother


Imagine the scenario. OP keeps quiet for some years, biting her tongue and hiding her discomfort.

In three years, her daughter says something to her that suggests that she feels overwhelmed by her mother, and her mother retorts by saying, "Well I said nothing about your hair covering." Suddenly, the daughter reframes three years of their relationship when it dawns on her that her mother has been biting her tongue FOR YEARS!

That is worse than saying something now, on her own terms.

This is one example.
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tichellady




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 13 2024, 5:21 pm
amother Saddlebrown wrote:
Imagine the scenario. OP keeps quiet for some years, biting her tongue and hiding her discomfort.

In three years, her daughter says something to her that suggests that she feels overwhelmed by her mother, and her mother retorts by saying, "Well I said nothing about your hair covering." Suddenly, the daughter reframes three years of their relationship when it dawns on her that her mother has been biting her tongue FOR YEARS!

That is worse than saying something now, on her own terms.

This is one example.


There is something wrong if this is something op needs to bite her tongue about for years. She needs to see a therapist if it’s effecting her that much. It has nothing to do with her. Having an adult child means letting go and it’s ok to need help with that but not to rely on your child for that help
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amother
Saddlebrown


 

Post Wed, Mar 13 2024, 6:47 pm
I find it strange that you don't understand.

Your hair covering is a major part of your identity, your screen name is literally your hair covering style, not your favorite cheese cake, not your job, not your chassidus, not your waist size, but your hair covering method. How can you deny that OP would notice it every time they met?
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tichellady




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 13 2024, 7:03 pm
amother Saddlebrown wrote:
I find it strange that you don't understand.

Your hair covering is a major part of your identity, your screen name is literally your hair covering style, not your favorite cheese cake, not your job, not your chassidus, not your waist size, but your hair covering method. How can you deny that OP would notice it every time they met?


It’s actually not at all a major part of my identity. It’s just a silly screen name. I don’t even wear Tichels that much now that I’m older and my face looks older. I certainly don’t think that the laws of modesty were designed so we could obsess and scrutinize other’s choices. Whenever we find ourselves upset about something that we have no control over, it’s worth doing some introspection about what’s really going on inside of us. Especially when it comes to us as Parents.
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 13 2024, 7:05 pm
The thing is that OP's dd is an adult who is living her own life. OP has no business mixing in at this stage. When your kids are small, you teach them what you can. You decide for them what they will wear, where they will go, what they will practice or not practice. That works only up to a certain stage. Beyond that, they become the bosses of themselves and they do as they choose to do. You hope that they will do everything the way you taught them, but at the end of the day, they are free to do as they see fit, without regard to whether you approve or not. Those who continue to hover and try to direct their children's lives bear many unpleasant descriptors ranging from "helicopters" to "meddlesome" to "intrusive" to "controlling" and so on.

OP is entitled to feel as betrayed as she wishes to feel; no one can take that away from her. But a: Unless I'm much mistaken, OP has repeatedly refused to answer exactly what she means by "not fully covering." What she is all bent out of shape about may in fact be halachically acceptable, even if it isn't socially accepted in her circles or in her own mind. Unless there is much that OP hasn't told us, she is grossly overreacting, casting aspersions on her dd's commitment to Yiddishkeit simply because the young woman is more lenient than Mom about ONE thing. But that is neither here nor there, because

b: Her dd is an adult and no longer under her mother's thumb. OP chose one way of doing things; her daughter chose another. (And as others have pointed out, her dd is adjusting to a new stage of life and may or may not go on doing what she's doing now.) That is absolutely her right. And OP, if you think your dd won't pick up on what you think of her just because you're not saying anything to her outright, you're dead wrong. She will know. When you're so disappointed in your child that you question her commitment to Yiddishkeit (which reaction is over the top and beyond insulting), make no mistake, it will come out in your eyes and in your sighs.
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amother
Blush


 

Post Wed, Mar 13 2024, 7:12 pm
zaq wrote:
The thing is that OP's dd is an adult who is living her own life. OP has no business mixing in at this stage. When your kids are small, you teach them what you can. You decide for them what they will wear, where they will go, what they will practice or not practice. That works only up to a certain stage. Beyond that, they become the bosses of themselves and they do as they choose to do. You hope that they will do everything the way you taught them, but at the end of the day, they are free to do as they see fit, without regard to whether you approve or not. Those who continue to hover and try to direct their children's lives bear many unpleasant descriptors ranging from "helicopters" to "meddlesome" to "intrusive" to "controlling" and so on.

OP is entitled to feel as betrayed as she wishes to feel; no one can take that away from her. But a: Unless I'm much mistaken, OP has repeatedly refused to answer exactly what she means by "not fully covering." What she is all bent out of shape about may in fact be halachically acceptable, even if it isn't socially accepted in her circles or in her own mind. Unless there is much that OP hasn't told us, she is grossly overreacting, casting aspersions on her dd's commitment to Yiddishkeit simply because the young woman is more lenient than Mom about ONE thing. But that is neither here nor there, because

b: Her dd is an adult and no longer under her mother's thumb. OP chose one way of doing things; her daughter chose another. (And as others have pointed out, her dd is adjusting to a new stage of life and may or may not go on doing what she's doing now.) That is absolutely her right. And OP, if you think your dd won't pick up on what you think of her just because you're not saying anything to her outright, you're dead wrong. She will know. When you're so disappointed in your child that you question her commitment to Yiddishkeit (which reaction is over the top and beyond insulting), make no mistake, it will come out in your eyes and in your sighs.
interesting that these same independent adults must be hosted for yom tov and when they give birth... If they are so mature and ready for life and decisions, why do they need so much support all around?
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amother
Marigold


 

Post Wed, Mar 13 2024, 7:12 pm
amother Saddlebrown wrote:
I find it strange that you don't understand.

Your hair covering is a major part of your identity, your screen name is literally your hair covering style, not your favorite cheese cake, not your job, not your chassidus, not your waist size, but your hair covering method. How can you deny that OP would notice it every time they met?


This is so strange. I don't label my friends based on their head covering of choice. Do you?

Even if she notices it, her daughter is a full fledged adult. She knows about hair covering options and this is the one she chose. What's to talk about?
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amother
Marigold


 

Post Wed, Mar 13 2024, 7:15 pm
amother Blush wrote:
interesting that these same independent adults must be hosted for yom tov and when they give birth... If they are so mature and ready for life and decisions, why do they need so much support all around?


This argument is totally irrelevant. If you feel they aren't worthy of being adults, please don't marry your children off young and don't offer to support them.

Just because you help your children financially or other doesn't give you the right to get involved in their level of Yiddishkeit or personal life at all.

Plus, we don't know anything about OP supporting her married dd. IMO it's totally irrelevant if she is. What else should she have a say in? How often they are intimate? What type of birth control? What dd is making for supper?
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amother
Amaranthus


 

Post Wed, Mar 13 2024, 7:28 pm
Part of the problem is it’s going to limit her school options and have real bearing on the community she and her husband find themselves comfortable in. It’s something she needs to work through herself with her husband. And will probably evolve over time as she gets more mature.
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tichellady




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 13 2024, 7:49 pm
amother Blush wrote:
interesting that these same independent adults must be hosted for yom tov and when they give birth... If they are so mature and ready for life and decisions, why do they need so much support all around?


I think you are confusing two different worlds. The people who I know who have good boundaries with their adult children are also able to express their own needs to their adult children and be respected. It goes both ways
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amother
Clematis


 

Post Wed, Mar 13 2024, 8:14 pm
Why is there so much mother vs daughter, daughter vs mother sentiment?
Why can't both be on the same side rather than against each other?
Why can't a mother simply have a non-judgmental conversation with an adult daughter?
Adults can talk, share, discuss without the me against you.
Isn't this what parenting turns into anyway in upper teenage years?
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amother
Seafoam


 

Post Wed, Mar 13 2024, 8:15 pm
amother Saddlebrown wrote:
I have a different perspective to most people here.

You do not have to bottle up your feelings, and if you do, it is likely they will explode in a way that you have no control over. It is possible that one day you will say something that will make her realize how hurt you were and how your loving attitude to her was always covering a layer of hurt, making her doubt your relationship forever.

I would advise you to find a time to say something to her. Say it, say it once, and tell her you don't plan on discussing it again. Just tell her that it's on your mind and you want to say it once. And then, LEAVE IT ALONE forever.

Don't have fake relationship with your daughter, that is truly toxic.


That's a good point actually. She could just say "how is hair covering going?, I know it's a hig adjustment" and see where it goes
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