Taking away someone's pesach cleaning help - spin off

amother

Thu, Mar 14 2024, 5:47 pm

Is this any different than a teacher taking a job at a new school that is willing to pay her better or give her better schedule/ benefits or whatever? Would the old school be appropriate in ranting that the other school stole their teacher? Or any other person taking any other better job and leaving their company with a hole to fill?

I get that Pesach is hard for all of us and I know, thanks to Covid, exactly what it is to do Pesach cleaning and cooking with zero help. I also had a lady quit on me right before Pesach leaving me to attempt training someone new in all the chaos of pesach prep + house guests. It stunk.

That said, why is this situation more unique than any other? While I think poaching someone from a friend or neighbor is downright nasty, what is so wrong with making an offer to an employee and having them accept if it's better for them? Is it really so different from the situations above?

Please explain. Just a thought I'm processing.

patzer

Thu, Mar 14 2024, 6:01 pm

That's a good analogy.
I work in a school. Suppose one day another school approaches me and offers me more money or better working conditions, and I decide to accept the offer. I would feel obligated to give my current employer a reasonable amount of notice. Quitting suddenly would put them in a difficult position, and I would surely expect them to be furious with me (and rightly so)!
I would also be completely honest about why I was leaving (no stories about an imaginary relative's illness). And finally, I wouldn't expect to be able to demand my old job back when my new job is cutting hours.
There's a right way to do things, and a wrong way.

amother

Bergamot

Thu, Mar 14 2024, 6:02 pm

It would be wrong for the teacher to leave in the middle of the year. The teacher could tell her boss she's leaving and the boss would find a replacement for September.
The problem with cleaning help leaving right before Pesach is, that many people hire them all year so that they have help before Pesach.

amother

Pink

Thu, Mar 14 2024, 6:10 pm

It’s not, I think it’s the exact same. There is an employee, who is being recruited. Will it hurt the current employer temporarily to find a new employee? Sure. But that doesn’t mean the future employer can’t make an offer

I get that it can be very frustrating and a big hassle especially before a YT, but that doesn’t mean it’s wrong. It’s a little disturbing that so many people treat their cleaning lady like property rather than an employee

At the end of the day, if your cleaning lady is happy with her work environment and compensation, she isn’t going to leave that because someone offered her some extra hours or a little more for a couple weeks

So if you don’t want to lose your employee, treat them well and pay them well. Like any other business that has employees

amother

Pink

Thu, Mar 14 2024, 6:16 pm

patzer wrote:

If it’s possible to do so, then that is the correct way to do it

But If someone offers you a job with much better pay or working conditions that will change your livelihood- with the condition that you start immediately- are you really going to turn it down so you can be nice to your current employer and make it a little less stressful for them than have you leave without notice? Especially considering if it was reversed (your were being fired), there is typically not any notice whatsoever (or honest answers for that matter)

amother

Pink

Thu, Mar 14 2024, 6:17 pm

Success10 wrote:

The poachers only want the cleaning lady for Pesach! It's not the same as offering someone a full time, long-term job!

So then women can tell their cleaning lady’s that it’s imperative they work these hours before pesach, and if they don’t then they won’t have a job to come back to

Women can also give a bonus during pesach time, and should anyways, to offset any temptation to leave

amother

Powderblue

Thu, Mar 14 2024, 6:22 pm

I hope a teacher will first communicate with her place of employment why she isn't happy and ask for things to be better before deciding to leave them. I hope she lets her first place of employment know that she's leaving and doesn't just stand them up or quit with just a phone call or text or some false excuse.

Most teachers are educated enough to make informed decisions. Most hired help are not. They'll do anything for more money or more hours. Is it my fault that I can't offer more of either of those?

Teachers are a necessity to a school. I should hope us women can get to pesach without taking away someone else's help. I know you might feel the extra hour is a must but why at the expense of leaving someone else high and dry?

A teacher is replaceable in the long run. A cleaning woman is usually not replaceable before pesach.

B'Syata D'Shmya

Thu, Mar 14 2024, 6:26 pm

amother OP wrote:

Would you poach your daughters cleaning help?

You are trying to justify something you know is wrong.
You cant fix a problem by hurting someone else

Im not sure the mashal (comparison) to teaching is appropriate, as a teaching job is a permanent job. Your poaching is seasonal and temporary. When Pesach is over, you are more than happy to resume pre-Pesach schedule and not pay extra or request for more hours or hire someone elses cleaning help with more money.
Come on! Be a Mentch!

amother

Celeste

Thu, Mar 14 2024, 6:30 pm

Imagine a school that approaches a teacher in a different school 6 weeks before state exams and offers her double the salary.
Teacher switches.
And then a week after the exams, the school cuts the teacher's hours down to 3 hours a day because they don't need her.
Is that ethical?

There's also halachos of hurting someone. Like someone mentioned in the original thread, Rabbanim have weighed in.
But if I have a playgroup, and accept 8 kids for $500 apiece, can someone else offer me $800 for their child so I just kick out one of the other kids?
What if we didn't have a written contract, just a verbal agreement? Then can I kick out a child midyear because someone else is offering to pay more?

amother

Pearl

Thu, Mar 14 2024, 6:33 pm

There's a special place in hell for people who steal other people's cleaning ladies.
It'd not the same as a job that u give notice and u have time to find another employee. No self respecting teacher would leave mid year for another few bucks. If she would, she'll do it to the next school too.

B'Syata D'Shmya

Thu, Mar 14 2024, 6:33 pm

amother Celeste wrote:

Excellent points!!

amother

Mintcream

Thu, Mar 14 2024, 6:35 pm

Success10 wrote:

The poachers only want the cleaning lady for Pesach! It's not the same as offering someone a full time, long-term job!

Isn’t that the risk that falls on a cleaning woman who takes a new job? It’s their call to decide whether it’s worth that risk or not.

amother

Mintcream

Thu, Mar 14 2024, 6:39 pm

amother Powderblue wrote:

Most teachers are educated enough to make informed decisions. Most hired help are not. They'll do anything for more money or more hours. Is it my fault that I can't offer more of either of those?

Is it their fault they make the decision that gives them more money or more hours?

amother

Powderblue

Thu, Mar 14 2024, 6:43 pm

amother Mintcream wrote:

Is it their fault they make the decision that gives them more money or more hours?

It's the fault of the person tempting them with more money or more hours while knowing that she's leaving her friend who can't do that with nothing.

amother

Linen

Thu, Mar 14 2024, 6:51 pm

There is very little respect given to cleaning ladies on this site. I know from here that cleaning ladies are lazy, entitled, brainless, useless, scoundrels.
I imagine it’s because they speak Spanish and our communities think poorly of that.
I’m ashamed any time I read a thread about cleaning ladies.

giftedmom

Thu, Mar 14 2024, 6:59 pm

amother Linen wrote:

Do you actually know any irl?