Dd wants ds to be punished

amother

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 12:32 am

Dd and ds are between the ages of 9-13. Ds is younger.

Ds was angry at dd so he went into her room (sacred space) and moved things around (like beanbag) and he messed up her linen.

Dd is infuriated.
Last time ds went into her room and moved her beanbag I chose to ignore it.
This time she screamed and screamed that I need to punish him etc. So I went and yelled at him very strongly and told him that next time he goes into her room and touches her things, he'll have to pay her $2.

That wasn't good enough for dd. She wants him punished THIS TIME, NOT NEXT TIME!!!!

wwyd?

amother

Dandelion

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 12:41 am

I’m confused. She screamed and wouldn’t stop so you screamed?

First off, I’d speak to your son strongly with a next time you will lose a privilege. I’d also tell your dd that she doesn’t make parenting decisions and you will not help her solve it when she in angry, anger is a destructive midda and there is no justification to be this angry. I’d them finish that she should please go to her room until she is calm enough to talk things through so together you can come up with a compromise. Then I’d sit with both dc and tell dd that she needs to calm down but what ds did is wrong. Then I’d tell ds that he violated her space and it’s wrong. He then needs to be told to apologize and commit to her not to repeat and then she needs to reciprocate with an apology.

amother

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 12:59 am

She screamed at me for about an hour.
It is THAT distressing.

I told her she can scream and cry and I still won't punish him for what he did. In the future he will have to pay her (that's what she considers an ok punishment. Or that she can choose the best three things from the MM he'll get )

She screamed and cried and disrupted older ds's time with me. (late from yeshiva) I was very calm considering her behavior for a very long time.
I know your angry. I'm not going to wake him up and give him a punishment. Next time he will get one. Etc. Etc

I finally yelled t her to go to her room and go to sleep and that she dare not come down again. Bh she didn't

amother

RosePink

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 1:08 am

Has this been a pattern in the past or is this a newer thing?
If she is usually the one being asked to be the bigger person more than her brother is the I understand where the anger comes from.
It’s not fair when one sibling always gets away with certain things and the others have to bear the brunt of it.

If that’s not the case please disregard this. Just wondering if that can be part of the story since I grew up that way

WhatFor

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 1:24 am

Someone coming into your personal space that's supposed to be private can feel extremely violating. Of course she shouldn't dictate how you parent her siblings but the fact that she kept escalating for an hour suggests to me that she wasn't feeling validated so she kept doubling down.

The Explosive Child might help you in figuring out how to communicate with her even if she's not generally explosive. Or Blimie Heller's approach which is about Respectful Parenting. You can see an interview she did on the Meaningful People podcast if you want to get an idea.

amother

Dandelion

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 1:25 am

amother OP wrote:

I get that. I have two dds that become this angry. One the same age and the other a toddler. I really see that my responsibility as their parent it to teach them how to deal with their anger because this is a much larger issue for the long term. I usually repeat that I will not speak to you or address any concerns you have when you’re this angry. You need to go to your room and calm yourself down. Anger is destructive and I will not sit here and be your outlet. Please go to your room until you’re calm. If it persists, I say that using someone as an outlet for anger is wrong and if she gets really bad sometimes I say abusive and then I walk away. I just keep repeating and stay very very firm but not angry.

Overtime, she has learned that her anger only results in her punishment and loss of privileges and has learned to calm down faster. She still gets angry though. Working on it with my toddler who runs to me saying I nice mommy, I nice and no angry and she is learning to stop. She gets so angry that she’ll break things and hurt herself, likely has adhd.

I wish I had these skills when my teen did was younger to always always stay calm and firm. I grew up with a lot of anger causing unintentional abuse so I’m very strong on this issue.

familyfirst

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 1:44 am

I’m sympathizing with your daughter here.
This is not the first time this happened. In her mind, had you dealt with it last time, this never would have happened.
Sending her to her room feels a little like blaming the victim.

Thinking that a little unprompted validation from you and a promise that if this happens again your son will face consequences might have avoided this whole scenario.

And yes, your son knew what he was doing and the feelings that would follow. It seems that a consequence for this time is in order.

And frankly, $2 may not cut it, especially if he doesn’t fully get the value of money. It should be a loss of a privilege.

Finally, a talk to your son about invasion of privacy is in order. As a private person, I totally get your daughter’s reaction.

He needs a talk about boundaries, and she needs a talk about self regulation.
For yourself, validate her in the beginning and this may never have escalated.

I may be way off here, but this is just my gut

WhatFor

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 1:49 am

Op, I just reread your op and see you wrote that the last time DS did this, you chose to ignore it, ie, passively allow your dd's space to be violated. This time you just gave him a warning but it wasn't his first time. Why are you being so chill about your DS going into your DD's private space solely for the purpose of antagonizing her? He's violating her boundaries and she wants that acknowledged at minimum. How would you feel if there was someone routinely violating your private space, messing things up in there, you had no ability to control it, and the people in charge were basically just letting it happen?

amother

Cognac

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 6:01 am

1: DS did something wrong. Not the first time. Probably deserves a consequence this time. Not next time.

2: DD is trying to dictate terms and yelled and acted up also. Probably best to validate and then let her know you wont entertain her behavior either

3: not a fan of him having to pay her. His punishment should have no connection to her. Gives her too much input here. He should lose a privilege of some kind.

4: is there a way for her to secure her room when shes not in there? A hook and eye where he cant reach? Or is he too old? What about this on the outside of her room. Very low key combination lock. https://www.amazon.com/Refrige.....rce=1

WhatFor

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 6:41 am

amother Dandelion wrote:

I understand why you might tell a child you're not engaging them when they're speaking disrespectfully, but if your children struggle with actual anger issues, I'm wondering what they're really learning here. If they have emotional regulation issues- which is likely if you think they have ADHD- they deserve to be treated by professionals and possibly medicated if needed. Even if it's not a biological issue, threatening and punishing doesn't really teach them actual skills and is likely to start backfiring by the time they're Op's DD's age or a little older.

I'm not saying this in a judgy way. We all do the best we can, and it sounds like you're ahead of the game in terms of what you saw growing up. I'm just concerned about the long-term effectiveness of what you're describing and am wondering if they would benefit from more actual teaching of skills and exploring with them why they react the way they do . Especially if, as you say, she gets so angry that she's actually harming herself.

amother

Gray

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 7:17 am

Your son should have been disciplined the first time he did that. Standing by and allowing it to happen time after time, just shows your daughter how little her space means to you. She’s not the adult here, so she’s pretty helpless to do anything about it. I would probably react the same way she did, knowing that nobody in charge cared about my stuff.

Her behavior is besides the point. She feels you are failing her as a mother, and this is her juvenile way of expressing it. Focusing on that part instead of the root cause (which should have been to discipline your son the first time he touched her stuff) would probably get you a lot farther in your relationship with your daughter.

Besides, children that see that it’s OK to invade other people’s spaces do not grow up to be healthy adults. They are the ones that people on this site complain about violating boundaries.

amother

Brass

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 7:44 am

WhatFor wrote:

Was going to post similar. Although I wouldn't necessarily say dc needs professional treatment or medication, dc does need to be taught HOW to calm herself down. Telling her to go to her room until she's calm doesn't give her techniques. During calm times, you may want to watch youtube videos, together with dd, on how to do deep breathing geared to children, as an example.

That said, it's great that you are able to stay calm yourseslf and not get caught up in the emotions. I'm just suggesting that extra step, help give her the tools to regulate herself, then when she's calm you can validate her and help her learn to validate herself.

amother

Mulberry

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 7:50 am

amother OP wrote:

Yes, she is right, you should punish him imediatly.
Problem is you didn't.

In any case he should put back in place what he put in disorder.
Probably she should have a possibility to lock her room when she is not there if he does not respect her privacy.

Ignoring it the first time was not OK, that's the reason why she reacts so strongly now.
Because she feels that the authority in place (you) is not there to hold up the law.

Solution for now: you give her the 2 dollars plus 2 for last time, and you apologize that you did not protect her last time.

amother

Brass

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 7:55 am

WhatFor wrote:

Agree it is violating. OP you are looking from the perspective of how much damage did ds cause, and saying dd is over-reacting. But she feels her personal space was intentionally violated. If someone violated my personal space, I would also get rageful. And if I was told it was really no big deal and I should calm myself down, I would rage even more.

This doesn't necessarily mean that ds needs a harsh punishment, but dd should have immediate validation for her feelings. You should also find out what precipitated ds's behavior. If it was also out of anger, why?

But better than you validating their feelings, and better than punishing, is for them to validate each others' feelings. You can act as mediator, but dd should express her feelings to ds directly. Feelings are not an attack or name calling. She would tell him how angry she gets when people come into her room. He should then apologize. If ds acted out of anger, he should explain to dd what she did that made him angry, and she can validate his feelings and apologize to him as well.

This is ultimately the life-skill that you want them to have.

If they are not capable of having this conversation because they are too angry, they should have it when they are calm. That is more likely to solve the problem going forward than any punishment or dd's yelling, and will also help their relationship.

OP, you can help facilitate them calming down by both immediately validating them as well as planning beforehand, together with them, some self-regulating techniques for how they can calm themselves down when they are angry.

I recommend the book Siblings Without Rivalry.

amother

Lemonlime

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 8:51 am

OP, I agree with your daughter here. She probably feels invalidated & that you don't care about her & that you let her younger brother get away with things.
You must stick up for her & be on her side when her younger brother invades her space & messes up her room. You ignoring it, was not a good move & just showed her that you don't care about her. I also used to yell at my mother because she never stuck up for me & I felt like she doesn't care.
9 is old enough to know better than to mess up his sisters room.
You can also suggest that your daughter keep her room locked.
Please show her validation & don't expect her to always be the bigger person.