Dd wants ds to be punished

amother

Lemonlime

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 8:17 am

amother Amaranthus wrote:

When you have little children and toddlers, they don’t understand what it means not to enter a room or not to touch something that seems very cool or interesting to them. That’s why we need to baby proof our house. A child or teen having a room that is “sacred space” and nobody can ever enter is setting the child up for failure later on. What happens when she marries a husband who goes and comes as he pleases? Maybe he is more careless than her and touches items in the room? Maybe she’ll have a roommate in seminary who brings friends into the room? I think giving your teen an expectation that no one can enter her room is rigid and unrealistic. Some teens in large families share rooms. Many don’t have their own space necessarily. It’s a privilege to have your own space and it’s reasonable for others to respect that space , but to say no one can ever come in and to blow up because a younger child messed around a little bit is blowing the situation out of proportion. It’s fair to have the child fix up what he did and apologize and the daughter could be satisfied with that.

I have young kids. My teens share a room and their room is locked. Their younger siblings can't enter their room. I'm not teaching my teens that their room is sacred. I am respecting their wishes of their personal space that the younger kids shouldn't enter their room. There's no reason for little kids to be able to enter teens rooms.
My room being off limits to my younger siblings, didn't cause any problems in my marriage. Just because your teens will get married one day ih, doesn't mean that they don't get to have their personal space now.

amother

RosePink

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 8:27 am

amother Amaranthus wrote:

What happens when she marries a husband who goes and comes as he pleases? Maybe he is more careless than her and touches items in the room?

There is a big difference between sharing a space with another person and having someone come and mess up your space because they are upset.

Yes my room is not always how I left it but if my husband would go and mess up my bed and things because he is upset at me I would be very pissed.

WhatFor

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 8:30 am

amother Amaranthus wrote:

These situations aren't comparable. When you marry someone as an adult, you're choosing to share a room with someone.

And OP's DD is not complaining about someone who shares the room with her. I shared a room with some sisters growing up and it would have been unheard of for any of our brothers to just waltz into our room unless we invited them in. If they ever snuck in they knew better than to leave any evidence. OP's DS deliberately invaded DD's private space to antagonize her. He messed up her linen, whatever that means. He's 9, not a toddler.

You want to talk about preparing kids for marriage (as opposed to teaching them good behavior for its own sake)? Okay. One day this boy is going to be a grown man. And hopefully, some time before then, his mother teaches him the importance of respecting personal boundaries. This is fundamental to having successful, healthy relationships. We don't get to disregard other people's boundaries just because we feel like it. This attitude leads to awful relationships with friends, colleagues, spouses, and children.

amother

Amaranthus

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 8:32 am

amother Lemonlime wrote:

I’m not against respecting personal space. I said that the younger child was wrong for going in and messing around. He needs to fix what he did and apologize.
With that being said, what he did was wrong, but it’s a mild crime. It’s not a crime as severe as the daughter is making it out to be. She needs to tone down her reaction a bit and put it in perspective. It seems rigid and entitled to me to raise children with an expectation that their room is that sacred that they go crazy if anyone ever goes into the room.

amother

Amaranthus

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 8:35 am

WhatFor wrote:

You also don’t get to blow up and boss your mother around because a sibling messed up a few things. The mother reprimanded him. What do you want her to do to him?

amother

Nasturtium

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 8:37 am

amother OP wrote:

Thanks all.

Ds was sleeping when dd went to her room and saw.
I woke him up to yell at him, which I think is punishment.
But yeah, I see it may not be.

Dd wants a major lock on her door. I don't want that because I'm worried about fire safety. Her room is already not on the same floor as the rest of the family, to give her space and privacy, which already worries me in case of an emergency chas veshalom.

Dd absolutely wants whatever ds has to lose, to go to her. Not just a lost privilege. She feels he needs to repay her.

Yes, yelling is punishment. I recommend the book "Spare the Child" by Rav Yechiel Yaakovson. It explains and defines different types of punishment. Yelling is actually (usually) a worse punishment than taking away $2.

WhatFor

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 8:41 am

amother Amaranthus wrote:

He didn't "just go into her room". He went into her room deliberately to mess up her stuff in her room. That's not normal. And I just reread the OP, and this DS is anywhere aged 9-12. The last time DS did this, OP did nothing about it at all. She didn't even reprimand her DS. So DD was already feeling insecure about her boundaries not being violated. Then it seems like OP had a weak and strange reaction this time, so DD started escalating. Which is what happens to any normal child or adult when they feel very violated and the person they rely on to enforce order is dismissing what happened.

And in some households it's perfectly normal to expect privacy in your space. Feeling unsettled that your brother might walk into your bedroom and wreak havoc at any time without consequence is not "rigid". Rigid would be a child freaking out because an electrician had to check something in their room while they were out. Op's DD has her head on straight and knows that what happened wasn't okay.

WhatFor

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 8:50 am

amother Amaranthus wrote:

You also don’t get to blow up and boss your mother around because a sibling messed up a few things. The mother reprimanded him. What do you want her to do to him?

You keep saying "messed up a few things", mischaracterizing and minimizing what happened here. Maybe personal boundaries aren't that important to you, but they're extremely important to other people. Whether or not you care if someone invades your own space has no bearing on the fact that we need to respect when others don't like it.

The mother actually ignored it the first time it happened. And was initially minimizing it when it happened again this time. You can tell your teens that they don't get to do this and they don't get to do that, but if you don't actually protect them and validate them when they feel like their space is being violated, they're going to blow up, whether you think they should or shouldn't.

The OP's entire approach is coming across as odd, and that's probably why there's this strange dynamic. First time she does nothing, second time she does that again, but then ends up reacting to what DD is telling her to do by waking up her son and yelling at him. No kid wants to be telling their parent how to parent. DD probably felt helpless and was just trying to get her mother to take her seriously and do something. I agree with the posters saying that OP could benefit from a parenting course. What she's describing is overly passive and only reacting once things are already escalated.

amother

Amaranthus

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 8:54 am

amother RosePink wrote:

While it’s important to respect personal boundaries, there is a balance. I know people who grew up locking their rooms and noticing the evidence every time someone may have touched something. Nobody can touch their stuff or their bed or whatever under any circumstances. These are not healthy individuals. You bet they have relationship problems. A healthy teen can find it in her to forgive a brother who bothered her and meddled in her room a little bit. She would be happy that he acknowledged the mistake and apologized without the extra drama.

amother

Lemonlime

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 8:58 am

amother Amaranthus wrote:

Do you have teens?
You are not thinking from the perspective of a teen. For a teen, it is a very big deal for someone to invade their personal space & mess up their stuff.
And again, I'm not raising my teens that their room is sacred. I'm not raising rigid & entitled kids. I DO understand a teens need for personal space & understand that to a teen, it does feel invaded if their younger siblings enter their room & touch their stuff. And I respect my teens need for their personal space.
And you as a mother, should understand that as well.
Every person needs their personal space. It doesn't make the person rigid or entitled.
Every child needs to be raised with knowing how to respect others personal space. You are actually doing a disservice to your kids, by not teaching them proper boundaries.

amother

Lemonlime

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 9:05 am

amother Amaranthus wrote:

Nobody can touch their stuff or their bed or whatever under any circumstances. These are not healthy individuals. You bet they have relationship problems. A healthy teen can find it in her to forgive a brother who bothered her and meddled in her room a little bit. She would be happy that he acknowledged the mistake and apologized without the extra drama.

You're right about the bolded. But OP's daughter is reacting the way she does, because she's not getting any validation from her mother. Her mother is not understanding to her situation. If her mother would be understanding & validating, then her daughter would most likely not react so strongly.

amother

Amaranthus

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 9:08 am

WhatFor wrote:

Wreak Havoc? He moved a bean bag and messed up the linen? I don’t know. I really don’t see what’s the big deal. He’s wrong , he shouldn’t have done it. Tell him he was wrong , have him apologize , and move on.

amother

Brass

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 9:08 am

amother Lemonlime wrote:

I agree with this. But if mom sticks up for the son & ignores DD & the situation her son caused, then she's invalidating her daughter & is showing her that she doesn't care about her.
Mom can validate daughter, while at the same time teach her to straighten it out with her brother.

Mom should not be sticking up for either of them.

She should validate both, then facilitate them telling each other their feelings in a respectful way.

amother

Lemonlime

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 9:08 am

amother Amaranthus wrote:

You also don’t get to blow up and boss your mother around because a sibling messed up a few things. The mother reprimanded him. What do you want her to do to him?

OP's daughter didn't blow up at her mother because her brother messed up her room. She blew up at her mother because her mother doesn't seem to care about her or validate her, and she's trying to get her mother to care about her.

amother

Lemonlime

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 9:10 am

amother Amaranthus wrote:

You are missing the point.
The point is that OP's daughter doesn't like when others enter her room, and her mom isn't understanding or validating of her feelings. She feels like her mother doesn't care about her.

amother

Amaranthus

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 9:14 am

amother Lemonlime wrote:

The teen can take care of this herself. When my siblings used to do this, we took care of it. No need to involve my mother. I wouldn’t dare tell my mother to punish a sibling.

amother

Brass

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 9:14 am

amother Lemonlime wrote:

But mom isn't doing that. Mom is sticking up for her son while not giving her daughter validation. This is a very helpless feeling for a child.

Correct. My post was a suggestion.

Although I don't think she was sticking up for the son either. She woke him up to yell at him. My suggestion to facilitate the conversation would be for the next day. I would not wake up a child for this, (and certainly not to yell at him).

amother

Lemonlime

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 9:19 am

amother Amaranthus wrote:

The teen can take care of this herself. When my siblings used to do this, we took care of it. No need to involve my mother. I wouldn’t dare tell my mother to punish a sibling.

But OP's DD did come to her mother, and her mother did not validate her or show care. (Are you deliberately missing the point here?)
A teen can ask their mother that they don't want younger siblings in their room, there's nothing wrong with that.