if youre being supported finacially by one side

amother

Carnation

Tue, Apr 02 2024, 8:54 am

amother Charcoal wrote:

Obviously that's ideal but not everyone feels that way. And we are talking about fully supporting them for years and flying them in 1-2x a year. If all they ask in return is to go to them for the seder then op has a pretty good deal going. Not sure what the big deal is.

You think “all” they ask is this? No way. Such people have demands for every cent they give. It’s disturbing and sick. They think every penny gives them rights to their kids.

amother

Charcoal

Tue, Apr 02 2024, 8:55 am

amother Carnation wrote:

It’s insane that people think this. Be a good parent. Help your kids because you love them. And stop thinking you own them. And it does happen, there are plenty of good people out there who do help their kids and expect nothing in return. And those relationships thrive. Unlike these transactional ones.

What about the flip side. Be a good child. Show some hakoras hatov to your parents that are supporting you for years and go to them for the pesach seder.

Personally I think it's insane that kids who are adults take and take and take and show no appreciation...just complain.

And this is why support is complicated. Adults should be supporting themselves so they can make their own decisions.

amother

Charcoal

Tue, Apr 02 2024, 8:56 am

amother Carnation wrote:

You think “all” they ask is this? No way. Such people have demands for every cent they give. It’s disturbing and sick. They think every penny gives them rights to their kids.

Op didn't mention they ask for anything else. She doesn't even mind going to her in laws...her parents are resentful

amother

Hydrangea

Tue, Apr 02 2024, 8:56 am

amother Charcoal wrote:

If. That's a big if.

Also we don't even know if the parents would be upset that they go to other side for the seder just this once. Maybe the parents are mentchlich people and would give in this once. Obviously I don't know the dynamics, but I wonder if it would be possible to just ask.

amother

Tue, Apr 02 2024, 8:57 am

amother Carnation wrote:

You think “all” they ask is this? No way. Such people have demands for every cent they give. It’s disturbing and sick. They think every penny gives them rights to their kids.

believe it or not they really really dont ask for much! legit they only ask for this and staying in my apt when they come to EY.

amother

Hydrangea

Tue, Apr 02 2024, 8:57 am

amother Charcoal wrote:

And the parents who raised their daughter all through the years? It takes years and years of blood, sweat and toil to raise a child. Where's the hakaras hatov to THEM?

amother

Lightgray

Tue, Apr 02 2024, 8:58 am

amother Charcoal wrote:

Because this is not for a single child, this is for a married couple. And there is another set of parents involved. This is using money to prioritize one set of parents over the other. It's inappropriate, and in many cases affects relationships and creates difficulties for the couple.

If you married them off, why don't you trust them to make their own choices.?

amother

Aubergine

Tue, Apr 02 2024, 8:59 am

amother Charcoal wrote:

Money comes with strings attached. That's the way it is. You work to get paid. Nobody gets free money. Obviously parents need to be reasonable but it isn't so fair either to expect them to give and give for no return.

If her in laws are paying to have them for the seder then why should they alternate years? Yes it would be nice of them to allow it, but it's not a given. Maybe in laws will then say forget it we won't fly you in at all.

to teach their son basic derech eretz, to be by his wife's parents seder as well. Only mentschlich. unless there is a specific situation where he is from a much smaller family etc...

B'Syata D'Shmya

Tue, Apr 02 2024, 8:59 am

amother Lightgray wrote:

I'm with chayalle on this one. The question I would ask of the paying set of parents is - are you paying the money for the couples benefit to come and enjoy YT, or are you paying them to come for your benefit so that they're by your seder?

If its the former, then you would let them decide how they want to spend YT. If it's the latter - it speaks for itself. You should at least be honest with the couple and tell them outright that you are doing this for yourself.

Personally, this is just means of controlling a couple via money. If you are truly looking to help your children for YT, then you would let them work out YT their own way. Giving with heavy strings attached is not truly giving.

Would it be a sin if OPs ILs were "doing it for themselves" (and Im not saying they are) ? No. Its human. So they arent self-less and dont ride your high horse with you. Doesnt make them evil. Or selfish. The ILs are not saying - "you can only stay by me, the whole time, do what we tell you do, etc. " - they are asking for the first days and the kids are free to decide what they want to do for the second days.
If the kids didnt want this arrangement, they could stay home and make their own Pesach.
If the kids feel "controlled" , they can cut the "heavy strings"(your words) and extradite themselves. OP clearly wrote she is happy being supported by her ILs and is grateful to have this opportunity. She will make her parents happy by spending second day YT with them, and helping them put away Pesach (which is huge).

amother

Hydrangea

Tue, Apr 02 2024, 9:00 am

amother Carnation wrote:

Yes. I really hope imamother is a minority because I'm just beyond horrified.

B'Syata D'Shmya

Tue, Apr 02 2024, 9:05 am

amother Hydrangea wrote:

And the parents who raised their daughter all through the years? It takes years and years of blood, sweat and toil to raise a child. Where's the hakaras hatov to THEM?

OP has decided to live in Israel and be supported by her ILs. Thats reality.
Hakaras Hatov is more than just spending leil seder together.

If OPs parents loved her, they would respect her choices and decisions and understand the reality of the situation. They would encourage her treat her ILs respectfully and lovingly, and not paint them as selfish. They would not jeopardize her SB. They would open their home for the second days and make the most of it. Second days really allow for a lot of quality time that they wouldnt have otherwise.
Why are people stirring the pot? Is the Yetzer Hara so ingrained in us that we look for machlokes in every interaction?

I write this as someone who knows what shes saying and not sitting on some high horse. Lets not rock boats.

Last edited by B'Syata D'Shmya on Tue, Apr 02 2024, 9:06 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Charcoal

Tue, Apr 02 2024, 9:05 am

amother OP wrote:

believe it or not they really really dont ask for much! legit they only ask for this and staying in my apt when they come to EY.

OP your in laws sound like amazing and generous people. I think this is a reasonable request for all they do for you. Don't let comments here cause you to resent them.

Imagine someone says I'll pay you 100k per year all you have to do is come to me for seder. Sounds like an awesome deal that many would jump at. Why is this any difference?

amother

Charcoal

Tue, Apr 02 2024, 9:07 am

amother Hydrangea wrote:

And the parents who raised their daughter all through the years? It takes years and years of blood, sweat and toil to raise a child. Where's the hakaras hatov to THEM?

And the parents who raised the boy all the years and continue to support him? And then graciously tell dil to go to her parents second days. And pay for her every expense. They ask for one thing and it's too much?

B'Syata D'Shmya

Tue, Apr 02 2024, 9:08 am

amother Carnation wrote:

You think “all” they ask is this? No way. Such people have demands for every cent they give. It’s disturbing and sick. They think every penny gives them rights to their kids.

You must have had some really bad experiences to come to this conclusion. I hope things get better for you.

doodlesmom

Tue, Apr 02 2024, 9:12 am

I once heard from someone being supported by his parent that the “work” he needs to put in to get “paid” for the “ job” is to accompany his father to shul every week, and another few “responsibilities “ that this job entails.

For the parents who are not giving support- I say this is the “ job” your sil took to get “paid”. Had he told you that he can’t come first days since he took on a paying job (in a hotel etc) so that he can continue learning….most would be understanding…

To the supporting parent I would obviously give different advice. Remind them that the most important is a happy couple, and your in law child is who she is because of her parents! And nothing will give her chiyus to be a good spouse like a good dose of family etc….

keym

Tue, Apr 02 2024, 9:17 am

I actually disagree with chayalle from my experiences.
I live in Lakewood but both my husband and I are from OOT and most of our families live in various OOT communities, some near each other and some far.
And I've learned between myself and my siblings and my friends, there's an etiquette in OOT of paying to bring kids in.

1) if the children pay for their own flights/drive, all decisions are entirely up to them. Where they eat, sleep, trips, etc

2) parents who pay for the flight or drive do have a level of expectation that the kids and grandkids are coming mostly to them. If my parents fly me in to Detroit for Yom Tov, sure I can go eat some Seudah, maybe join a Chol Hamoed trip with "other side" family in Detroit. But my home base is by my parents.
For this reason, couples who have both families in the same OOT city or nearby OOT cities either choose to alternate paying Yomim Tovim or share.
Obviously communication is important.
But it would be against all etiquette if my in-laws fly my in to LA and I go off to my parents or family.

3) parents don't always bring in the kids. But there is an understanding that it's not purely for the children but also for the parents. Sure, if my mother flies me and my family for Pesach, it now means that I don't have to make Yom Tov and save costs and enjoy my vacation. But my mother is doing it to enjoy the nachas of her children, do not be lonely, to see her grandchildren play with each other.

I truly wonder if posters are coming from similar background as me and have this etiquette engrained in them.

amother

Tue, Apr 02 2024, 9:18 am

doodlesmom wrote:

As for the couple I’d say start saving up now and next year say we’d rather pay our own way and make our own plans….

it would still be complicated bc they are also giving us money aside from paying for our flights. in the a way this is easier bc its easier for my parents to understand why we are going to in laws, whereas if we paid for the flights on our own in laws would still want us to come im sure, and would be a tough choice bc they do support us, aside from the flights.

amother

Hydrangea

Tue, Apr 02 2024, 9:45 am

amother OP wrote:

believe it or not they really really dont ask for much! legit they only ask for this and staying in my apt when they come to EY.

OP your in laws sound like good people, which I had that feeling. Who else would offer to support their son in EY etc etc. I was responding more to the other posters than to your OP...

If this is all the ask of you, then I think you can just validate your mother's feelings and move on. Yes, I know Ma, I wish I could come but you know how it is... something like that. She probably just wants to be validated and heard.