At what age do you have to start disciplining your children?

greeneyes

Tue, Aug 26 2008, 4:47 pm

I took my 14 month old dd to the children's library yesterday, figuring that it would be fun to sit there and read her some books other than the ones she has at home.

She was thrilled by all the books, and quickly got to work pulling them off the shelves at record speed. She was making a real big mess. I tried distract her from pulling the books down by saying gently, "come, do you want Mommy to read you a book?" or "how about we just take a few books off the shelf to look at?" She started screeching though, because all she wanted to do was pull as many books off the shelves as possible.

I wasn't sure how to handle the situation. So I pretty much let her take the books down, and then I kept replacing them back on the shelf. Did I handle that correctly? She's still too little to really reason with.

When I told my DH what happened, his response was that maybe she's still a little too young to go to the library.

This whole thing got me thinking though, at what age do you really have to start disciplining your kids? By letting her pull the books off the shelf was I sending her the wrong message?

dw_paprika

Tue, Aug 26 2008, 4:57 pm

There's a well known story about a man who came to his Rebbe with his three-year-old child and asked when he should begin disciplining him. The Rebbe replied - you're three years late already... (or, with a different twist - you're twenty-three years too late. In other words, you have to be disciplined in order to discipline. But that's not in reply to your question..)

As for what you wrote, I feel that the first few years are ones in which we only discipline so as not to "ruin" our children's chinuch. They are too young to be taught, but we have to make sure not to spoil them, as we wait for the "proper age".

So, a child who runs to the street (or pulls off books from the library shelf) should be told "no, sweetie, you cannot do that". Will they understand? No, they won't. But at some point, when they do, they won't be surprised to hear a new message they've never heard before.

And as (whoops, who was it? I don' thave it in front of me anymore) wrote, the best thing would be to take her away from the nisayon in the first place. Leave the library, hold on to her hand in the street - - try to get through this age safely so that when you begin speaking to a child who does understand, you will not be talking to a spoiled little person who never heard the word "no" and believes she may do anything she wants. Whiel she may not understand your exact message, she will slowly learn that there are certain things Mommy does not approve of.

Good luck :0)

Twizzlers

Tue, Aug 26 2008, 5:24 pm

although I agree with the other posters about disciplining at a young age, I dont think that you mishandled the library incident.

if you would have said "no, you may not pull the books off the shelf" and then 2 minutes later gave in, that would be mixed messages and confusing for a child. but it seems like you just tried to distract her and when that didnt work, let her continue.

just btw, I'm more of a laid back person when it comes to my kids. if its not dangerous, and I'm able to clean up/put back whatever they took out or messed around with, I'd let them have fun.

c'mon, do you really think its more fun for a 1 year old to read a book or play with the books? what you could have done was maybe after she was done, make a game of putting all of them back. cuz there's nothing really wrong with making a mess......so long as you clean up when you're done.

rowo

Tue, Aug 26 2008, 9:18 pm

like shopaholic said, I try to do now what I plan to do in the future. my ds is 15 months adn def understands what I say to him. for a while he loved emptying shelves (at home though...) depending on the books (sefarim or not) and the situation I responded differently. whenever he did it I made it clear that this is not something that makes mummy happy and that tatty's books don't belong onthe floor. sometimes I would tell him a few times that this is not what we do with books and try to give him something else to do. if he continued I removed him from the shelf. other times, I would be a bit more relaxed, wait till he had finished and then make a game of putting them all back.
now he actually loves looking at his books, so we're pretty much surrounded by them all day. but at least it means he's not interested in the ones without pictures anymore

happymom

Tue, Aug 26 2008, 9:55 pm

I wasn't sure how to handle the situation. So I pretty much let her take the books down, and then I kept replacing them back on the shelf. Did I handle that correctly? She's still too little to really reason with.

yes you handeled it right. babies are just exploring thier world. thats what they do, they empty things. by saying no over and over all that will happen is she will get frustrated. you can either show her something else she can do and distract her, or let her empty books and then have a game of putting them back together.

when I take my son (he is 16 months) to the library we do the same thing..

BusyBeeMommy

Tue, Aug 26 2008, 10:34 pm

I think that while it's important to teach a child limits from when they're young, it's also important not to make the whole world a big fat "NO!" I pick my battles w/ my DD who's 17 months old. If it's not safe, then I definitely tell her no, but if she's just exploring, sometimes I will let her have fun and then clean up. Like mashing her food and exploring their texture - she's learning that way. But if she does s/t like stick her hand into an electric socket, I will let her know that she may never do that. Also, there are many times when she wants s/t I have that I cannot give to her - like my cell phone. If she sees it and asks for it, and I don't give it to her, she has a terrible meltdown. But I let her scream it out - I think it's healthy. Another example is that she only gets a bottle before she goes to sleep, so if she decides she wants one at a different time, I will gently explain to her that she cannot have it then. She will screech her head off for 5-10 min straight, and I try to act loving to her but I don't give in. However, I try to keep these things out of her sight not to present her w/ any unecessary nisyonos.

The key is to be consistent w/ whatever you do - if you say no, stick to it. And as someone else said, take her away from the scene so as not to tempt her. Little kids have very little impulse control and it's really hard to discipline them... but it's important to let them know that there are boundaries in this world. Otherwise, one morning you'll wake up w/ a lttle spoiled brat and you won't know what to do w/ her.

Crayon210

Tue, Aug 26 2008, 11:45 pm

Twizzlers wrote:

if you would have said "no, you may not pull the books off the shelf" and then 2 minutes later gave in, that would be mixed messages and confusing for a child. but it seems like you just tried to distract her and when that didnt work, let her continue.

How are those two scenarios that different from each other?

Quote:

just btw, I'm more of a laid back person when it comes to my kids. if its not dangerous, and I'm able to clean up/put back whatever they took out or messed around with, I'd let them have fun.

There's a difference between messing up your house and messing up someone else's things. Do you have this laid back attitude in other people's houses?

Quote:

c'mon, do you really think its more fun for a 1 year old to read a book or play with the books? what you could have done was maybe after she was done, make a game of putting all of them back. cuz there's nothing really wrong with making a mess......so long as you clean up when you're done.

Again, I think there's a difference when it's not your property.

Twizzlers

Wed, Aug 27 2008, 9:26 am

Crayon210 wrote:

Twizzlers wrote:

How are those two scenarios that different from each other?

trying to distract her with something else is like saying, how bout doing this instead, as opposed to saying no, you may not play with this. do you still not see a difference?

Crayon210 wrote:

Quote:

just btw, I'm more of a laid back person when it comes to my kids. if its not dangerous, and I'm able to clean up/put back whatever they took out or messed around with, I'd let them have fun.

There's a difference between messing up your house and messing up someone else's things. Do you have this laid back attitude in other people's houses?

um, we're talking about a childrens library. they dont expect children to be on their best behavior. and yes, when we go to someone's house for a playdate, I allow my son to play with the toys in whatever manner he likes (assuming its not destructive or dangerous) thats what toys are meant for.

Crayon210 wrote:

Quote:

Again, I think there's a difference when it's not your property.

agreed, but not in a place that is meant for children to enjoy. if she was talking about the books in the adult section, I could hear your argument.

Crayon210

Wed, Aug 27 2008, 9:39 am

Twizzlers wrote:

Crayon210 wrote:

Twizzlers wrote:

How are those two scenarios that different from each other?

trying to distract her with something else is like saying, how bout doing this instead, as opposed to saying no, you may not play with this. do you still not see a difference?

I don't. Because the end result is that she continues to do the inappropriate thing. Unless you're saying that it's okay because you didn't say no. Sure, that's better, but if you don't want her playing with it, it makes more sense to distract her by removing her from the situation.

Quote:

Crayon210 wrote:

Quote:

just btw, I'm more of a laid back person when it comes to my kids. if its not dangerous, and I'm able to clean up/put back whatever they took out or messed around with, I'd let them have fun.

There's a difference between messing up your house and messing up someone else's things. Do you have this laid back attitude in other people's houses?

Some libraries do expect children (and everyone else) to behave, since it's a library and libraries are traditionally quiet places. I guess we're talking about different setups.

You allow your son to throw as many toys as he'd like on the floor at someone else's house? Confused

Quote:

Crayon210 wrote:

Quote:

Again, I think there's a difference when it's not your property.

agreed, but not in a place that is meant for children to enjoy. if she was talking about the books in the adult section, I could hear your argument.

I don't think the children's library necessarily appreciates small children coming and throwing books on the floor. They're not your books to throw on the floor. I know the libraries I've been to would definitely have a problem with a child who just sat there and threw books while the mother helplessly tried to "distract".

Twizzlers

Wed, Aug 27 2008, 12:31 pm

crayon, I'm not going to hog greeneyes' thread arguing out our differences in child raising. but one thing I have to say, children are meant to act like children, not miniature adults. when you and your child are invited to someones house for a PLAY date, it is expected that the child will actually PLAY with the toys and not sit and have tea with the adults. Rolling Eyes

and another thing, you have to pick your battles. you want to fight with a kid about a little exploring she's doing by taking out some books? good, enjoy. but when you need to assert yourself for more important stuff like not running in the street, I think you'll have a harder time.

mumoo

Wed, Aug 27 2008, 12:45 pm

shopaholic wrote:

It may sound harsh, but if my 6 month old would bite me, or pull my sheitel, because he/she knows what it's doing, I would gently say, "Nooooo. Can't bite/pull Mommy's sheitel". It's never to early. As my mother says, "Start as you mean to go on"

I don't think you are wrong. Harsh would be if you didn't tell your child the proper wayto behave and he had to suffer the consequences another person's anger

Discipline is not punishment, it is a system of self awareness and self control.

mumoo

Wed, Aug 27 2008, 12:52 pm

Twizzlers wrote:

I think you are confusing building blocks with books and sending the wrong message to your child. my children loved to be read to at a year and read and respect books for their intended purpose.

Crayon, your kids can come over anytime

Crayon210

Wed, Aug 27 2008, 1:36 pm

Twizzlers wrote:

I didn't ask about playing with toys. I asked about throwing all the toys everywhere, and you said that's fine. Confused

Quote:

If you only assert yourself about not running in the street, your child will probably wonder who the heck this woman thinks she is, telling him not to run into the street.

montrealmommy

Wed, Aug 27 2008, 2:39 pm

I ahve o agree with those that say that it's never to early to discipline. And, that a library, a public place should be treated with a certain degree of respect. A children's library (or children's section, simplymeans there is age-appropriate material to read, it does not mean its a play ground with indistructible toys! And no, IMO books are not toys - and should be treated differently.

OP - I don't know if you did the right thing ornot since I do not know you or how you parent in other situations. What I can answer is, I woud not haveacted the same. If that were my child and they didn't not stop the undesired behavior then I would have presumed they are too young/immature to participate in such an activiy and promptly leave, apologizing to the librarian if we were disruptive.