My Agmas Nefesh with son's Bar Mitzva

ChossidMom

Fri, Oct 03 2008, 2:21 am

I worked so hard at designing my invitations and getting it just right. I proofread and proofread.

Then, I come in to the printers yesterday and I see the finished product. I almost fainted.

We didn't do envelopes. It's all on one sheet of paper which gets folded over. So, the return address should be on the back flap, a map of how to get to the hall should be on the back and the front should be empty so that we could address them. Simple, right? Well, they printed the map ON THE FRONT. When the girl saw my reaction she said "But you signed on it". Excuse me? I signed on a piece of paper which I proofread FOR CONTENT. I don't know what goes where? We had made up with the graphic artist at the printer that the map goes on the back. How the heck can they put it splattered across the front (including bus directions!!!).
I am so mad. I freaked out and yelled at her and she just kept saying "But you signed". I finally left without paying, of course, and left them the useless invites. Then I got into my car and burst into tears.

I have to go back there on Sunday and talk to the owner and tell him that it's completely unacceptable and that they have to print up new ones. At least I'll have managed to calm down by then.

justmom

Fri, Oct 03 2008, 2:28 am

I am so sorry for you, and of course it's completely unacceptable. I don't know where you're located but there's an amazing cheap printer in Kiryat Sefer-- all English speakers that can get it done in a day if necessary. Please PM me if you want more info. Good Luck-- and don't worry-- it will work out-- at least you didn't lose money on it.

BeershevaBubby

Fri, Oct 03 2008, 2:30 am

Sorry, but you didn't just sign on the content. It was up to the graphic designer and you to fold the printout you received to the exact way you're expecting it to look.

Only after the layout and the text and the monogram are to your liking do you sign off on it.

I know this isn't exactly what you want to hear, and I'm really sorry this happened, but you're both at fault - her more so since she's supposed to know better.

(And I know of what I speak, having worked in a print shop for over 5 years and designed a few hundred wedding and bar mitzvah invitations)

shalhevet

Fri, Oct 03 2008, 2:48 am

I'm glad Yesha said it first, so I won't be the evil one!

I was going to say, maybe you aren't as right as you think. It is natural for us to feel we are in the right, especially under stress. Sit down with someone like a friend and carefully go over what you signed on. Are you absolutely sure it is only their fault? Then go and ask a rav what to do about it. I certainly wouldn't refuse to pay without asking a shaila.

When it comes to a simcha I would even be inclined to pay lifnim mishuras hadin so that no one should have any tainos on me, even if I'm technically in the right. This might not mean paying the full price, but just what it cost them.

I once heard a shiur that just like we put aside money for other mitzvos like lulav and esrog, matzas etc, we should also put money aside for the mitzva of shalom.

Tamiri

Fri, Oct 03 2008, 2:52 am

We brought in the invitation EXACTLY as we wanted it printed: outside top third with the art and his name and pasuk UPSIDE DOWN so when it folded over it was right side up.
Each THIRD of the invitation painstakingly laid out so nothing would be on a fold.
We saw exactly what it would look like on our own white sheet of paper, before allowing the printer to print.
The printer prints what he sees. He does not lay anything out or (hopefully) change letters or wording after you sign for it.
I hope that the work was not too much money and that he will compromise with you for correcting the order.
May this be a kappara and nothing worse should every happen.
Keep in mind that you can't always blame the printer: they see it ALL, and I mean all. There may actually be people out there who WANT a map on the front of their invite!!!

BeershevaBubby

Fri, Oct 03 2008, 2:56 am

Bambamama wrote:

OK, I have no experience in that industry, but if the graphic artist works for the printer and ChossidMom worked with the graphic artist to decide what goes where, I would think it is the print shop's responsibility to communicate with their graphic artist, no??

Not at all.

The printer prints what he gets. He doesn't call or page or go over to the graphic artist to confirm before he runs the press or makes the plates that it is exactly right (unless there's a GLARING mistake, and layout is not an obvious mistake unless it's falling off the field of print) because it is the graphic artist's job to make sure it is exactly right BEFORE the printer gets anything.

Bambamama

Fri, Oct 03 2008, 3:02 am

YESHASettler wrote:

Bambamama wrote:

I was under the impression that it's an in-house graphic artist. That would make all the difference. If this is the case, then it seems to me for sure they should take responsibility. If she works for them, she should follow through to the very end.

BeershevaBubby

Fri, Oct 03 2008, 3:06 am

Mrs. XYZ wrote:

Dont these places give you one sample or proof of the finished product before printing out hundreds of copies?

You get a black and white printout on plain paper.

Many customers (and I am NOT pointing fingers!!!!) are picky enough about layout, fonts, the text, the monogram... it can take some people a month to approve an invitation.

Now sometimes, they'll spring for color printing - meaning a color other than black. They get a Pantone book and see the color on the cardboard swatch (much like a paint chip sample) and that's exactly the color they're going to get (making allowances if they use color card stock instead of white). Never do they get a color copy of the invitation because laser printers are not the same as the offset printing process and the colors WILL be off.

Now imagine these same picky people, who have spent a month fussing and fressing over everything else actually being there when they run the press. The invitations will never get done.

The only time customers were given VIP allowances was when they paid VIP prices - over $1000 for invitations.

Now please understand something else... this is NOT for digital printing houses... this is for conventional printers who make negatives of what's being printed. THey then have to clean their presses and prep the machines with the proper color(s), the proper card stock, etc. It's a time consuming process and things can't just be tweaked in a minute or two if the customer doesn't like the color or card stock that's being used.

BeershevaBubby

Fri, Oct 03 2008, 3:09 am

Bambamama wrote:

I said at the beginning that the graphic artist was more to blame than CM since she should have known to make a complete mock-up, completely folded and everything before allowing CM to sign off on it.

The problem is it's one of those things that the customer is penalized for not knowing any better... CM assumed she was just signing off on content and not also the layout.

ChossidMom

Fri, Oct 03 2008, 3:15 am

The graphic artist I sat down with is an in-house one. She is the daughter of the owner. I have dealt with her in the past (satisfactorily). She explained that they can put a map on the back. That's the sicum we made.

When I came in the last few times I dealt with a different worker. For the final draft they faxed it to me. There was no indication on the fax which is the front, which is the back. Just a piece of paper with a map and text. I, not having worked in a printer's office ever, did not imagine that I had to fold over the piece of paper they sent me. I proofread the CONTENT. I took for granted that printers know which is the front and which is the back. And, not having ever printed invitations before, I certainly didn't know that I am supposed to guess which is the front and which is the back.

The map is across 2/3 of the front of the invitation. How come noone called and said, "Giveret, did you know that the map is on the front along with bus directions? Are you sure you want that"? THIS WAS NOT THE SICUM BETWEEN US. I was told the map would be on the back!

Tamiri

Fri, Oct 03 2008, 3:16 am

Mrs. XYZ wrote:

Quote:

You get a black and white printout on plain paper.

I assume this is double-sided. So if chossidmom got that, wouldn't she have tried to fold it and realize right away that it was printed wrong?

AHA!!!! We are waiting for her input on that...
Maybe they prepared it by themselves at home and were not aware of all the "tricks" you have to be aware of when you go to print out invitations. Lo norah, this can be a (hopefully inexpensive) lesson, if that's the case.
It took us hours and hours to get the invitations "just right" because we are not experts.

BeershevaBubby

Fri, Oct 03 2008, 3:16 am

When I was doing anything two-sided and the client was coming in for (especially) final approval, I printed out both sides, cut it to size, stapled the two sides together and folded it as the final product was going to look. If it was going into an envelope, I had the exact envelope ordered on hand to make sure it fit and to show the client it would go in easily.

I believe all the other in-house graphic artists where I worked did the same and I believe they're still doing it that way.

The client would sign that as well as a regular printout.

ChossidMom

Fri, Oct 03 2008, 3:16 am

Mrs. XYZ wrote:

Quote:

You get a black and white printout on plain paper.

I assume this is double-sided. So if chossidmom got that, wouldn't she have tried to fold it and realize right away that it was printed wrong?

In the fax it obviously can't be double sided. I received two separate pieces of paper. Never occured to me to fold my fax!!!

ChossidMom

Fri, Oct 03 2008, 3:18 am

YESHASettler wrote:

I assure you that they didn't do that and they didn't explain how it would look. they just faxed it to me after they finally got the map right and asked me to sign. So I signed. Never occurred to me to discuss folds.

Tamiri

Fri, Oct 03 2008, 3:19 am

ChossidMom wrote:

Then, since you used their services and had a sikum with THEIR graphic artist, I would say that you are 100% in the right and they need to make good on what you decided with her. No, you cannot be expected to know what she knows and it's her JOB to make sure that what you get is what you decided on.
I would not scream or yell. Since you have not paid yet, I would calmly speak with the owner. Explain what happened. Don't offer to make up the difference - let him suggest something satisfactory to both of you. Or, take your business elsewhere.