Socialism vs. Democracy?

mugsisme

Thu, Oct 30 2008, 4:53 pm

I started this thread ... I can lay down the way I would like it to go. So please, if you feel the need to be rude, obnoxious, or just plain attack me or anyone else, just don't bother posting. I had a real nice, civil discussion last night with my aide who is a huge Obama supporter. I told her afterwards that she was the first person who did not try to change the subject, yell at me, or get rude. She said, if you answer a yes/no question with emotion, then you have already lost the argument.

I view this election on many levels. But the one that is the most near and dear to me is the socialism vs. democracy. I really feel that this is what it has come down to. So I am just curious among the Obama supporters. Do you feel that socialism is the way for our country to go? Is that why you are voting for him? Or is it a genuine dislike of McCain?

I have read that some Obama supporters say that they are going into this eyes wide open. I am just curious why none of this stuff bothers you. Any of it. I know that no candidate is perfect. But it seems like we know more about Joe the Plumber than we do about this man who is running for president.

mugsisme

Thu, Oct 30 2008, 6:07 pm

*sigh* OK, forget. So I made a mistake. It is perfectly alright, because I guess you all are perfect in every way. I guess it is not possible to have a discussion with Obama supporters.

poemmom

Thu, Oct 30 2008, 6:07 pm

Democracy is a form of government in which power comes from the people (as opposed to monarchy, dictatorship, or many other forms.)

Socialism is an economic system which is generally contrasted with capitalism.

America is a democracy with a capitalist economic system.

mugsisme

Thu, Oct 30 2008, 6:10 pm

poemmom wrote:

Well, then, I didn't make a mistake. I still think it is not possible to have a normal discussion. I thought I asked a simple question. Maybe it was too hard?

New question --

Do you support Socialism? yes or no answer.

Crayon210

Thu, Oct 30 2008, 6:11 pm

mugsisme wrote:

*sigh* OK, forget. So I made a mistake. It is perfectly alright, because I guess you all are perfect in every way. I guess it is not possible to have a discussion with Obama supporters.

It's not a big deal! It's just that it's hard (if not impossible) to contrast two systems that actually work simultaneously in countries like France (hence Ruchel's confusion) and Eretz Yisroel, and that aren't in the same "category".

chavamom

Thu, Oct 30 2008, 6:15 pm

It's not really a yes or no question. Do I want to live in a purely socialist society like old-school kibbutzim? Nope. Do I support some social programs like medicare and social security? Absolutely.

I bet I'm not alone and I bet many non-Obama supporters agree with me.

mugsisme

Thu, Oct 30 2008, 6:15 pm

Every time I have said I wanted to move to EY because I fear that we will lose our democracy here, I am told, But Israel is a socialist country. This was said a bunch of times, by both Americans and Israelis.

poemmom

Thu, Oct 30 2008, 6:15 pm

Mugisme,

I honestly did not mean my answer offensively -- I just wanted to help define some confusing terms to aid the discussion.

I am a McCain supporter anyway!

As for your new question, I believe a free market economy (capitalism) is best, and creates the most wealth for the whole society.

mugsisme

Thu, Oct 30 2008, 6:16 pm

Chava, wouldn't you rather choose where you money is spent? I know a lot of people are upset about the war. If they had their druthers, they would not want our money being spent on it. What if there is a new plan that you don't like? (I am just speaking hypothetically here. I am really trying to understand.)

Clarissa

Thu, Oct 30 2008, 6:17 pm

mugsisme wrote:

*sigh* OK, forget. So I made a mistake. It is perfectly alright, because I guess you all are perfect in every way. I guess it is not possible to have a discussion with Obama supporters.

Obama supporters like GR, Ruchel and Crayon?

Crayon210

Thu, Oct 30 2008, 6:18 pm

mugsisme wrote:

Israel is a democracy as well. It's a weird democracy, but there are elections, and people vote.

If you fear that you're going to lose say over your money due to "redistribution of the wealth" (socialism), then moving to EY is not going to be any different, because there, medicine and other programs are socialized.

mugsisme

Thu, Oct 30 2008, 6:20 pm

poemmom wrote:

I honestly did not mean my answer offensively -- I just wanted to help define some confusing terms to aid the discussion.
As for your new question, I believe a free market economy (capitalism) is best, and creates the most wealth for the whole society.

I was not offended at all by your comment. I agree. I worry that taxing big and small business, it will destroy both, forcing the end of free enterprise. I am also thinking that if you have tax a business, it will cut corners somewhere, like firing employees.

mugsisme

Thu, Oct 30 2008, 6:24 pm

Clarissa wrote:

Obama supporters like GR, Ruchel and Crayon?

Obama supporters do not want to explain themselves. They do not want to answer a simple (or so I thought) question.

Does Israel penalize the wealthy people? And yes, I do worry about redistribution of wealth being socialism. I might be wrong about this, but didn't this happen in Russia? The government tried to make things more equal, and it ended up with the small, wealthy elite and the rest of the population was poor. I do get a little mixed up between the differences between socialism, fascism, and Marxism.

Crayon210

Thu, Oct 30 2008, 6:27 pm

mugsisme wrote:

Does Israel penalize the wealthy people?

Well, taxes are higher there (right?) to cover more programs, like national health care.

Quote:

And yes, I do worry about redistribution of wealth being socialism. I might be wrong about this, but didn't this happen in Russia? The government tried to make things more equal, and it ended up with the small, wealthy elite and the rest of the population was poor. I do get a little mixed up between the differences between socialism, fascism, and Marxism.

There wasn't a democracy in Russia, I.e., no real elections. So the same dictators remained in power, and yes, they ultimately took a huge chunk of the wealth for themselves. That was actually what is called communism.

Clarissa

Thu, Oct 30 2008, 6:28 pm

mugsisme wrote:

Clarissa wrote:

Obama supporters like GR, Ruchel and Crayon?

Obama supporters do not want to explain themselves. They do not want to answer a simple (or so I thought) question.

Mugisme, that was said in response to you being corrected about your question. Several people corrected you, only one an Obama supporter, and your response was that it's impossible to discuss things with Obama supporters.

Did that make sense? Was it fair?

Last edited by Clarissa on Thu, Oct 30 2008, 6:30 pm; edited 1 time in total