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hadasa

Sun, Nov 30 2008, 10:47 am

I also keep on having these would-have-could-have-should-have-if-only! thoughts, but I try to push them away. What happened, happened and nothing except for Moshiach will bring them back. These thoughts are just torturing us for no reason. They can't help.

As far as Tamiri's point - yes, there is a paradox. The paradox is in that the very same army charged to protect Jewish land and Jewish lives, and does a good job in some areas, also causes many boys to stray from the way of life they were educated in, including those in the Nachal Hachareidi. The paradox is, in case you've forgotten, in that that same army was used to remove Jews from their homes. The paradox is in that the government in the Jewish State, which was supposedly meant to be a haven for the Jews, does not recognize the difference between Jew and non-Jew as long as they had a Jewish grandfather. The paradox is in that the Jewish State does much to eradicate any connection with anything Jewish.

So yes, it is a paradox we are forced to live with. The soldiers who are protecting the land and the people are doing holy work. They are precious Jewish Neshamos and may Hashem protect them all. But sitting and learning Torah is also holy, and just as crucial for the survival of the Jewish nation. For if nobody does that, who will ensure the continuation of the tradition of Torha? I surely can't depend on the government for that.

BeershevaBubby

Sun, Nov 30 2008, 10:49 am

hadasa wrote:

So yes, it is a paradox we are forced to live with. The soldiers who are protecting the land and the people are doing holy work. They are precious Jewish Neshamos and may Hashem protect them all. But sitting and learning Torah is also holy, and just as crucial for the survival of the Jewish nation. For if nobody does that, who will ensure the continuation of the tradition of Torha? I surely can't depend on the government for that.

I'm sorry, but when did India become part of Israel?

hadasa

Sun, Nov 30 2008, 1:55 pm

I wasn't one of those saying should have, if only, etc. As I said, I consider these thoughts useless self-torture.
But still, I might consider one of the State's good points the fact that there still is some feeling of solidarity with Jews around the world. Especially with Jews who have dedicated their lives to Israeli teenagers looking for meaning in foreign cultures.

Atali

Sun, Nov 30 2008, 2:13 pm

Okay, I'll attempt to jump into the fire and answer this:

1. Although I know this isn't your main point, everyone in the Chabad house was an Israeli citizen (except the Mexican woman, who was in the process of making Aliyah), Rav Holtzberg HY"D moved to America at the age of nine, and he may not even have been an American citizen at all.

2. Now onto the main point. I would have no problem at all with my children serving in the army if it were run in accordance with Torah (proper separation from women and accepting guidance from rabbonim). However, that is not the situation now and in fact soldiers are even forced to do things that are the opposite of protecting the Jewish people (think Gush Katif). However, whenever the army is acting in accordance with Torah they should be praised and supported.

3. Also, I agree with Shalhevet's point that learning Torah (and I mean those who are seriously learning) is as much of a protection as serving in the army.

lubaussie

Sun, Nov 30 2008, 4:52 pm

Atali wrote:

2. Now onto the main point. I would have no problem at all with my children serving in the army if it were run in accordance with Torah (proper separation from women and accepting guidance from rabbonim). However, that is not the situation now and in fact soldiers are even forced to do things that are the opposite of protecting the Jewish people (think Gush Katif). However, whenever the army is acting in accordance with Torah they should be praised and supported.

3. Also, I agree with Shalhevet's point that learning Torah (and I mean those who are seriously learning) is as much of a protection as serving in the army.

TzenaRena

Sun, Nov 30 2008, 5:27 pm

ora_43 wrote:

Tamiri wrote:

Terror in Mumbai Haaretz.com

Israeli experts: Slow operation meant 'no chance' for hostages at Mumbai Chabad house

By Amos Harel

Tags: israel news, terror attacks

"To the Indians' credit, they were determined and sought contact [with the enemy] all the time," Tzur continued, adding that a terrorist takeover of a hotel is "the nightmare of every counterterrorism unit," because it is hard to effectively "cleanse" so large a site.

However, he said, this excuse did not apply to the much smaller Nariman House. The 12-hour battle to liberate the building was "unreasonable," he said, because "there's no chance in the world that captives will survive an incident that doesn't end within minutes of the break-in."

The Indians, he added, apparently assumed the hostages had already been killed.

Col. (res.) Lior Lotan, formerly a senior officer in the army's elite Sayeret Matkal unit, said the Indians had operated as if there were no hostages.

"When you're rescuing captives, you enter fast, with maximum force, and try to reach the hostages as quickly as possible, even at the price of casualties," he said. "Here, they operated much more cautiously."

Television pictures from Nariman House also raised questions about the professionalism of the Indian forces. For instance, it is not clear why the area was not cleared of bystanders, or why the comparatively risky option of a helicopter-borne assault was chosen.

Moreover, the explosion that blew in the ground-floor door occurred before soldiers landed on the rooftop, whereas for maximum effect, they should have occurred simultaneously, the Israelis said.

They should have used the highly successful Israeli method of dealing with hostage-takers:

1. Assume the hostages are alive despite no evidence to the contrary

2. Start a large-scale battle targeting the group affiliated with the kidnappers.

3. End battle with hostages still missing.

4. "Gather information" for at least two years, still with no proof of life, allowing terrorists to booby-trap the building in which the hostages are located and possibly move hostage(s) to another country. Continue granting terrorists affiliated with hostage-takers visitation rights and free university degrees and holiday food and other privileges.

5. Give the terrorists everything they asked for in the beginning, get dead bodies. (Hopefully with Shalit it won't end this way, but that's where we seem to be heading).

I'm not saying this to denigrate the IDF stam--they do good work, and do the huge mitzva of protecting am yisrael 24/7. But for IDF officials to start criticizing the way India handled its hostage crisis is incredible chutzpa right now, IMHO, especially given our own recent track record. The Indian soldiers did what they could. They saved lives. Israel should let them at least bury their dead before starting in on "what went wrong."

Israel's track record has nothing to do with the degree of training the elite units in Israel get,the Entebbe rescue was executed with great courage and skill. That degree of skill is still there, the failure stems from the fact that security decisions are made by politicians,based on political considerations, rather than security.

Raisin

Sun, Nov 30 2008, 5:31 pm

Atali wrote:

Not only that, the Chabad House was specifiacally targeted becasue it catered to Israelis. there are several other Jewish institutions in Bombay, but the chabad house was chosen.

from ynet:

Quote:

Meanwhile on Sunday the Ministerial Committee for Symbols and Ceremonies headed by Minister Jacob Edery has decided to recognize the Israeli victims of the Mumbai attack as terror victims. The decision will affect the victims' burial arrangement and the treatment of their families.

justmom

Sun, Nov 30 2008, 6:11 pm

Tamiri, I hear you loud and clear. Shalhevet, who is going to protect you and your family if Tamiri's son and all the boys leave the army? Hashem is not prone to send revealed nissim in our days-- and after all the sinas chinam exhibited here recently, I'd be surprised if we were zoche to any nissim at all. We need the nissim of the Israeli army to make Hashem's nissim seem to be b'derech hatevah.

marina

Sun, Nov 30 2008, 6:54 pm

I'm not moving to Israel in part for this reason- I don't want my children being subject to a mandatory draft. I know that if everyone agreed with my position, Israel may not exist, but that prospect does not bother me as much as sending off my child to kill and be killed.

Barbara

Sun, Nov 30 2008, 10:50 pm

shalhevet wrote:

Tamiri wrote:

Why is it enough to be learning Torah when they have a civil obligation/right to serve, but in times like these no one is saying that learning Torah is enough?
Does anyone have an explanation for me?

Who says no one is saying learning Torah is enough? I have no problem at all with your son, and all the other boys in the army leaving and going to sit and learn in yeshiva right now.

In fact, the exact opposite is true. The way these animals behave today, when they don't even care about their own lives, just goes to show how all the armies in the world can only stand helplessly by. And how much we depend only on Hashem. What use is כוחי ועוצם ידי (my strength and the might of my hand) against one Arab with a tractor or a bunch of animals who will just blow up the whole bus or building with everyone in it, including themselves? Surely today, more than ever, we see that it is not the Israeli army protecting us, but only Hashem. Of course soldiers are His agents, and doing a mitzva, but it is not the army who will save us, but only Hashem using them as His tool.

We obviously live in very different worlds if you believe that yeshiva bochurs sitting around studing Torah provide us with significant protection. In my world, if the Israeli army put down their arms and studied Torah, it would be a matter of days before dozens, if not hundreds, of terrorists entered Israel and began slaughtering people. The country would be lucky to last weeks.

You see, I don't believe that everything happens because that's exactly the way HaShem wants it to happen. I believe that things happen because humans have choices, and all too often, make the wrong ones. HaShem ensures that there are people in place who can save us. Maybe one, maybe hundreds. Look at Mumbai. The manager of the Taj claims that there were warnings, and that there was extra security in place until recently. People saw the terrorists come in on small boats, and decided not to alert the police. How many others could have stopped it, but didn't? Look at the difference a single person in a single place made with respect to the baby at Chabad. What could have happened with hundreds like her, in the months before the attacks? Think about Purim. Mordechai told Esther that perhaps the reasons that she was there was so that she could rescue the Jewish people, and she did. In Mumbai, in Israel, on 9/11, before and ruing the Holocaust, how many people did HaShem give that opportunity, who simply turned their backs.

Every day, we have to ask ourselves if *we* are the people whom HaShem put in place. *We* can't turn our backs. *We* need to make a difference. In Israel, that may well mean serving in the Army. Mandatory service is what, two years? What's that out of a lifetime of doing other things, including learning? If I were Israeli, I'd probably argue in favor of a system in which each year, a certain number of the most brilliant learners were entitled to serve their Army time by learning and by teaching others, instead of the current blanket system. But I'm not Israeli.

Tamiri

Sun, Nov 30 2008, 11:58 pm

Three years is the standard service for boys.
You must be MO LOL

Barbara

Mon, Dec 01 2008, 12:50 am

Tamiri wrote:

Three years is the standard service for boys.
You must be MO LOL

How utterly disgusting and offensive.

Tamiri

Mon, Dec 01 2008, 12:55 am

Why? It was not meant to be.
What you wrote is an indication of a very open mind.

lubaussie

Mon, Dec 01 2008, 1:47 am

Barbara wrote:

if you believe that yeshiva bochurs sitting around studing Torah provide us with significant protection.

I find this out of place on a frum forum.

BeershevaBubby

Mon, Dec 01 2008, 1:51 am

Chava wrote:

Barbara wrote:

if you believe that yeshiva bochurs sitting around studing Torah provide us with significant protection.

I find this out of place on a frum forum.

Why? Do you not understand the concept of Hishtadlut?

lubaussie

Mon, Dec 01 2008, 1:55 am

I disagree with the notion that Yeshiva Bochrim "sitting around" Confused

learning Hashem's Torah, by which we have survived as a nation when all other nations were felled, does not grant us "significant protection." I thought this was a fundamental Jewish/frum belief.

Last edited by lubaussie on Mon, Dec 01 2008, 2:00 am; edited 3 times in total

BeershevaBubby

Mon, Dec 01 2008, 1:57 am

Chava wrote:

I disagree with the notion that Yeshiva Bochrim "sitting around" Confused

learning Hashem's Torah, by which we have survived as a nation when all other nations were felled, does not grant us "significant protection." I thought this was a fundamental Jewish/frum belief.

It may on a spiritual level but we're talking physical level. "Significant protection" implies no need for an army.

lubaussie

Mon, Dec 01 2008, 2:00 am

I agree with Barbara that if all soldiers were to quit the army and start learning Torah, we would probably be in grave danger, but do you think that if all bochrim were to stop learning Torah and join the army, we would be in any way more secure? Yes, our soldiers save lives, but everything happens through G-d. we need to have both Torah learning and physical hishtadlus. Both are as important as each other.

ETA: I did not like the tone in which young men who dedicate their lives (or years of their lives) to learning Torah were described as "sitting around," implying laziness and unproductiveness.

dainty diva

Mon, Dec 01 2008, 2:06 am

And in my rebbe's opinion, the English were good enough to protect Palestine! It was the problem of establishing a Jewish State and therefore relying on chosheve bocherim to serve in the army instead of learning!

BeershevaBubby

Mon, Dec 01 2008, 2:08 am

Chava wrote:

No one is saying to stop learning Torah.

The OP's point was the same people many of you ridicule for being in the Army are the ones you call upon to risk their lives for other Jews in other countries and she sees that as hypocritical. Their job of protecting us physically is just as important as those who learn Torah to protect us spiritually.

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