Thoughts | Imamother

dainty diva

Mon, Dec 01 2008, 2:09 am

And I live in the US, and I expect my national army to protect me, even though my boys don't serve. Is that a paradox?

dainty diva

Mon, Dec 01 2008, 2:11 am

now everybody, YELL! go, go, go! (I'm not trying to make pirud levuvos here, just voicing our shita)

BeershevaBubby

Mon, Dec 01 2008, 2:12 am

dainty diva wrote:

And I live in the US, and I expect my national army to protect me, even though my boys don't serve. Is that a paradox?

Of course not. First of all there are enough non-Jews who volunteer to fill the need of the armed forces. Second of all, there's no mandatory draft in the US.

However here in Israel, there is mandatory draft and when a portion of the population are Jewish and religious, they get called up.

lubaussie

Mon, Dec 01 2008, 2:19 am

YESHASettler wrote:

The OP's point was the same people many of you ridicule for being in the Army are the ones you call upon to risk their lives for other Jews in other countries and she sees that as hypocritical. Their job of protecting us physically is just as important as those who learn Torah to protect us spiritually.

First of all, I personally never ridiculed anybody, *certainly* not our brave soldiers in the army! shock

In fact I have personally given tzedaka to their causes. Not allowing one's son to join up to the army for hashkafic reasons - whether you agree with them or not - is *quite* different to "ridiculing" them. Maybe some people did insult, and I'm sorry about those people. As for being hypocritical, well, what hadasa wrote a few posts up pretty much sums up my response to that:

Quote:

yes, there is a paradox. The paradox is in that the very same army charged to protect Jewish land and Jewish lives, and does a good job in some areas, also causes many boys to stray from the way of life they were educated in, including those in the Nachal Hachareidi. The paradox is, in case you've forgotten, in that that same army was used to remove Jews from their homes. The paradox is in that the government in the Jewish State, which was supposedly meant to be a haven for the Jews, does not recognize the difference between Jew and non-Jew as long as they had a Jewish grandfather. The paradox is in that the Jewish State does much to eradicate any connection with anything Jewish.
So yes, it is a paradox we are forced to live with. The soldiers who are protecting the land and the people are doing holy work. They are precious Jewish Neshamos and may Hashem protect them all. But sitting and learning Torah is also holy, and just as crucial for the survival of the Jewish nation. For if nobody does that, who will ensure the continuation of the tradition of Torha? I surely can't depend on the government for that.

But anyway, I think your point is the same point I was trying to make. Learning Torah is JUST as important as fighting. I personally believe that our spiritual actions also affect us physically (which is why I completed the whole Tehillim several times over the past few days, instead of doing something more practical like donating money or travelling to India.) But I think we are making the same point - both are crucial to our survival.

baba

Mon, Dec 01 2008, 2:40 am

Chava wrote:

[
But anyway, I think your point is the same point I was trying to make. Learning Torah is JUST as important as fighting. I personally believe that our spiritual actions also affect us physically (which is why I completed the whole Tehillim several times over the past few days, instead of doing something more practical like donating money or travelling to India.) But I think we are making the same point - both are crucial to our survival.

I agree with this. What I dont agree with is that this automatically devides Israeli's into 2 groups, one that learns and one that serves in the army. Pesronally, I think the army would be much better off if it was dafke filled with serious, tora learning jews. Yes guys have been known to go off the derech in the army, but this mainly happens in units with almost no other dati guys and to guys who werent so serious in the first place. If the army was filled with good frum boys (granted, one cant learn all day in the army, but there is time every day to learn a bit or have a chevruta), I think we'd be much stronger.

shalhevet

Mon, Dec 01 2008, 2:43 am

Barbara wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

Tamiri wrote:

Why is it enough to be learning Torah when they have a civil obligation/right to serve, but in times like these no one is saying that learning Torah is enough?
Does anyone have an explanation for me?

Who says no one is saying learning Torah is enough? I have no problem at all with your son, and all the other boys in the army leaving and going to sit and learn in yeshiva right now.

In fact, the exact opposite is true. The way these animals behave today, when they don't even care about their own lives, just goes to show how all the armies in the world can only stand helplessly by. And how much we depend only on Hashem. What use is כוחי ועוצם ידי (my strength and the might of my hand) against one Arab with a tractor or a bunch of animals who will just blow up the whole bus or building with everyone in it, including themselves? Surely today, more than ever, we see that it is not the Israeli army protecting us, but only Hashem. Of course soldiers are His agents, and doing a mitzva, but it is not the army who will save us, but only Hashem using them as His tool.

We obviously live in very different worlds if you believe that yeshiva bochurs sitting around studing Torah provide us with significant protection. In my world, if the Israeli army put down their arms and studied Torah, it would be a matter of days before dozens, if not hundreds, of terrorists entered Israel and began slaughtering people. The country would be lucky to last weeks.

I find your post extremely offensive and maybe even apikorsus.

Does it seem logical to you that Israel can even exist? We have unfortunately seen only too well over the last few years how the army is totally helpless against 'people' who hate us who don't care if they die too. Look at recent events - how an Arab with a car or a tractor can kill Jews in a moment. How someone can get on a bus and blow it up. It is only with Hashem's mercy that this doesn't happen every moment. Go and read some history. Go and see what odds were against a few thousand Jews with a hotch-potch of weapons against millions of Arabs in 1948. Go and read about 1967 and 1973 and how a small army could defend itself against the entire Arab bloc. Read about the Gulf War (if you don't remember it) about how scuds hardly caused any damage here, whereas they killed dozens of American servicemen.

Of course we need the hishtadlut of an army, but it is just that - hishtadlut. And the reason we do hishtadlut is because we have a mitzva to do so - but the power behind it is our Torah and mitzvos.

Quote:

You see, I don't believe that everything happens because that's exactly the way HaShem wants it to happen.

That is called apikorsus and has no place on this site.

Quote:

I believe that things happen because humans have choices, and all too often, make the wrong ones. HaShem ensures that there are people in place who can save us. Maybe one, maybe hundreds. Look at Mumbai. The manager of the Taj claims that there were warnings, and that there was extra security in place until recently. People saw the terrorists come in on small boats, and decided not to alert the police. How many others could have stopped it, but didn't? Look at the difference a single person in a single place made with respect to the baby at Chabad. What could have happened with hundreds like her, in the months before the attacks?

And to those who believe in hashgacha pratis (Divine providence) the very same events prove how Hashem decides what will happen to everyone. He decided on RH mi yichye u'mi yamut - who will live and who will die. Little Moishe was saved against all the odds because that's what Hashem had decided. And, although we cannot understand the reasons, those who died did so because it was Hashem's will too.

Quote:

Think about Purim. Mordechai told Esther that perhaps the reasons that she was there was so that she could rescue the Jewish people, and she did.

I suggest you go and read the story of Purim very thoroughly before bringing it as proof. Purim teaches us precisely the opposite. Was the whole episode with Vashti logical? And Esther being chosen? And then Esther going to the king, when she was almost certain he would kill her even for coming?

Not only that, but those who saved the Jewish people were like all those crazy yeshiva bochrim. The whole thing seemingly began because Mordechai told the Jews not to go to the king's party, even though it was diplomatically unacceptable. He doesn't bow to Haman (I'm sure you would have considered this necessary hishtadlut.) Instead of bringing in the army, Mordechai gathers all the children to fast and daven.

Quote:

In Mumbai, in Israel, on 9/11, before and ruing the Holocaust, how many people did HaShem give that opportunity, who simply turned their backs.

This is not just apikorsus, this is really insulting and worse to the people there. If they would have all been as clever as Barbara, sitting in her comfy armchair in America, they would have been saved.

Quote:

Every day, we have to ask ourselves if *we* are the people whom HaShem put in place. *We* can't turn our backs. *We* need to make a difference. In Israel, that may well mean serving in the Army. Mandatory service is what, two years? What's that out of a lifetime of doing other things, including learning?

So where are your two years of helping Israel? And if you think two years or even two minutes of someone's life is dispensable, you need to learn something about the value of time too.

Quote:

If I were Israeli, I'd probably argue in favor of a system in which each year, a certain number of the most brilliant learners were entitled to serve their Army time by learning and by teaching others, instead of the current blanket system. But I'm not Israeli.

lubaussie

Mon, Dec 01 2008, 2:53 am

Shalhevet, you put in fine words what I was struggling to articulate.

Marion

Mon, Dec 01 2008, 3:26 am

The problem is not the ones who spend their lives learning, IMO. It's the ones who learn enough hours a day to be exempt from the draft, only until their age allows them to go work without being drafted. (Yes, these exist too.) IMO these are not serious learners and they should be serving. Too frum to serve? No such thing.

HindaRochel

Mon, Dec 01 2008, 3:33 am

[quote="shalhevet"

Quote:

]

Barbara wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

Tamiri wrote:

Why is it enough to be learning Torah when they have a civil obligation/right to serve, but in times like these no one is saying that learning Torah is enough?
Does anyone have an explanation for me?

I find your post extremely offensive and maybe even apikorsus.

Well we can trade insults back and forth here, but lets not and say we didn't. Seems kind of counter-productive imho or nsho.

Quote:

Does it seem logical to you that Israel can even exist? We have unfortunately seen only too well over the last few years how the army is totally helpless against 'people' who hate us who don't care if they die too. Look at recent events - how an Arab with a car or a tractor can kill Jews in a moment. How someone can get on a bus and blow it up. It is only with Hashem's mercy that this doesn't happen every moment. Go and read some history. Go and see what odds were against a few thousand Jews with a hotch-potch of weapons against millions of Arabs in 1948. Go and read about 1967 and 1973 and how a small army could defend itself against the entire Arab bloc. Read about the Gulf War (if you don't remember it) about how scuds hardly caused any damage here, whereas they killed dozens of American servicemen.

Of course we need the hishtadlut of an army, but it is just that - hishtadlut. And the reason we do hishtadlut is because we have a mitzva to do so - but the power behind it is our Torah and mitzvos.

The hishtadlut and the Torah and Mitzvot should, on the whole, be done by the same people. The more people in the army who realize it isn't their arm power, but Hashem, that drives the successes the better we as a nation will be.

Quote:

You see, I don't believe that everything happens because that's exactly the way HaShem wants it to happen.

That is called apikorsus and has no place on this site.

Barbara can you clarify? Because to my knowledge everything that happens is by Hashem's design. For example, we learn to build a protection on our roof, not to protect someone from falling off, but, because when they do (if that is their destiny) then we will not be the ones at fault.

I don't pretend to understand it fully; it doesn't make sense "logically" that we are and at the same time aren't in control.

Quote:

Think about Purim. Mordechai told Esther that perhaps the reasons that she was there was so that she could rescue the Jewish people, and she did.

Um, the only one apparently who behaved in a Toradikah fashion was Mordechai and Esther. The rest weren't behaving. There is no evidence that everyone else was like a Yeshiva Bochor. Most people went to the party, and that wouldn't be hishtadlut. Mordeachai by not bowing was doing hishtadlut. Esther by going to the King was doing hishtadlut. The Jews who armed themselves and fought (physically not by prayer, and after having fasted and done tsuvah) were doing hishtadlut.

Quote:

In Mumbai, in Israel, on 9/11, before and ruing the Holocaust, how many people did HaShem give that opportunity, who simply turned their backs.

snipping.

Quote:

I missed something here. You think learning Torah doesn't accomplish anything, but you think brilliant learners should serve their time by learning and teaching others. What would that accomplish? Shouldn't they be sitting in tanks?[/quote]

She is arguing for learning and learning with the soldiers who may not have a chance otherwise.

She is advocating for combining the brachas of spirituality and physical brachas. They should be in the same person, and should be done by the same person. They shouldn't be sitting and learning while others protect them physically but either fighting or on the base with the soldiers giving them immediate and visceral support. And she is speaking about only a few brilliant learners, who should learn and teach.

I would actually have a three tiered system among the religious.
Fighters and Learners. And good learners, not people without zitchflesh, but those who actually love learning and want to learn more than anything.
Learners and Teachers/or supports They are with or near the fighters, so as not to get in the way but so they know they are being prayed for (like Moshe on the mountain). The fighters feel it and see it. They can also bring food and help rescue fallen soldiers (and you can pray and learn that way if you have the mind for it. Pray certainly.) Learn with the soldiers, something simple and refreshing and uplifting for the soul and mind when they are off duty. Be a role model. Encourage them to do Torah deeds.
They would share in kitchen duties and clean up duties and eat the food with the soldiers. Having a Frum Jewish man say a blessing over his food, in a loud, but not obnoxiously loud voice, could inspire a few to say their brachas or at least answer amen, which results in a mitzvah.

baba

Mon, Dec 01 2008, 4:36 am

Quote:

You see, I don't believe that everything happens because that's exactly the way HaShem wants it to happen.

That is called apikorsus and has no place on this site.

It's really not that simple. You're now discussing a very deep and complicated issue in Jewish philosopy. The Rambam in Morei Nevuchim raises this issue. I'm not even going to pretend I have any clue what he is saying there. I had a big discussion with dh about this after he learnt about it in yeshive, and he says his rav also couldnt really explain certain parts of what the Rambam is saying. But I do know that it isnt that black and white and you cant just call someone an apikorus over this.

HindaRochel

Mon, Dec 01 2008, 4:50 am

baba wrote:

Quote:

You see, I don't believe that everything happens because that's exactly the way HaShem wants it to happen.

That is called apikorsus and has no place on this site.

Just a note. I did not call Barbara an apikores. I don't think she is. The issue is really quite complicated, but I would love to read the Rambam in English on the issue.

baba

Mon, Dec 01 2008, 5:06 am

Hindarochel: I didnt think you did, I was talking in a general you. Bli neder I'll ask dh about it, cause it is a really interesting question. But it will have to wait, he has a rabbanut exam tomorrow, so this isnt the time to bother him with deep philosophical questions.

lubaussie

Mon, Dec 01 2008, 6:18 am

Quote:

You see, I don't believe that everything happens because that's exactly the way HaShem wants it to happen.

Saying that things happen beyond G-d's control is apikorsus.

Marion

Mon, Dec 01 2008, 6:20 am

Chava wrote:

Quote:

You see, I don't believe that everything happens because that's exactly the way HaShem wants it to happen.

Saying that things happen beyond G-d's control is apikorsus.

Not it's not. G-d gives us freedom of choice. That means that a person who Hashem meant to be one of the biggest tzaddikim has the choice to do the worst aveirot.

tomorrow

Mon, Dec 01 2008, 6:22 am

I think that there are a few issues coming into play here, and I'll add my two cents on a couple of them.

The lesser complicated is this issue of guys that are learning that aren't learning. Yes, there are some earnest, dawn-to-dusk-and-beyond learners out there. Some of these may well become the next (badly needed) gedolei hador. However, there are many of these bachurim that can be seen at construction sites, just watching, at 10:00am, outside the doors of the yeshivah/kollel smoking at regular and frequent intervals throughout the day, working under the table, etc. I think that's where much of the issue lie, is with a public that claims "learning, learning" but this is sometimes used as a mask, or a shield to stand behind.

The bigger issue, at least in my book, is the army as a generally perceived "evil hero" so to speak. There are many people that can learn that aren't 18-21 (or 23) years old. It's not like nobody would be learning if that population were to join the army. Yes, there is the Nachal HaChareidi and there are Hesder units. Have a problem with it? So propose a solution -- like the rav/rebbe/rosh yeshivah of XYZ group going to the army and saying, "Okay, we have ABC number of boys. What will you do to make it kosher for them to serve? Let's talk." I'd expand here, but I have two little girls to pick up from gan.

shalhevet

Mon, Dec 01 2008, 7:02 am

Marion wrote:

Chava wrote:

Quote:

You see, I don't believe that everything happens because that's exactly the way HaShem wants it to happen.

Saying that things happen beyond G-d's control is apikorsus.

Not it's not. G-d gives us freedom of choice. That means that a person who Hashem meant to be one of the biggest tzaddikim has the choice to do the worst aveirot.

Because Hashem chooses to give us freedom of choice, but it is still within His control if he chooses to take it away. (Like Paro, who some opinions hold that Hashem took away his freedom of choice at a particular point. There are also opinions that kings, leaders of countries etc no longer have freedom of choice about decisions affecting their countries.)

octopus

Mon, Dec 01 2008, 7:32 am

baba wrote:

Chava wrote:

In the times of moshe the army was filled with only G-d fearing talmidei chachamim. Technically, then, the cream of the crop should be serving in the army. If we had the kind of leadership like days of yore.

tomorrow

Mon, Dec 01 2008, 7:36 am

And how exactly is that kosher leadership supposed to happen if nobody's willing to step in and do it?

sarahd

Mon, Dec 01 2008, 7:54 am

Political leadership, not military. If Chizkiyahu or Dovid Hamelech were running the country, then talmidei chachamim could safely enlist in the army.

And if you think a yirei shamayim would ever make it to chief of staff in the Israeli army under any other circumstances, even if every single hareidi man enlisted at 18 and served a full three years in a combat unit, you're really deluding yourself.

Tamiri

Mon, Dec 01 2008, 11:25 am

Hey, I suggested Barbara has MO thought process based on what she wrote and got a "disgusting and insulting" retort.
Some other gal suggested that the thought process was "apikoress" and.... silence.
Why did *I* get blasted? Rolling Eyes