Deleted | Imamother

Zus

Tue, Dec 23 2008, 4:56 am

Inspired wrote:

amother wrote:

A real apartment? That's crazy!

Please explain to me how this is an appropriate use of amother. How does it not break the stated rules?

This is not inappropriate use of amother. This post is not insulting nor rude or attacking.

The idea of the raffle is nice. But I agree about the maaser money, that's not for raffle tickets.
However, I'm not sure I like the idea of yet another foreign person owning an apartment in Jerusalem, which will stay empty most of the year. It's becoming a huge problem in Jerusalem.

amother

Tue, Dec 23 2008, 5:12 am

Zus wrote:

Inspired wrote:

amother wrote:

A real apartment? That's crazy!

Please explain to me how this is an appropriate use of amother. How does it not break the stated rules?

This is not inappropriate use of amother. This post is not insulting nor rude or attacking.

It is rude. Calling the OP's idea "crazy".

You should probably convince Yael to change the stated rule.

Zus

Tue, Dec 23 2008, 5:16 am

We're working on it.

amother

Tue, Dec 23 2008, 5:18 am

Oh good. Maybe we can stop using screan names at all and the board will be a total joke, just a bunch of amothers

HooRYou

Tue, Dec 23 2008, 5:19 am

It could be that when amother wrote A real apartment? That's crazy! she meant the idea of raffling off an apartment since it sounds like a huge prize. I don't think it was an insult. I also don't think it is that crazy since I have seen other apartment raffles here.

EvenI

Tue, Dec 23 2008, 5:25 am

I think you can make a tanai that the money you are giving is ma'aser money unless you win, and, if you win, it is not ma'aser money - so then the prize can be yours and you can pay ma'aser money separately. I think all of these types of yeshiva raffles are done with the assumption that people will do this. I know a yeshiva that runs a raffle with a money prize. They advise you to make this tannai if you buy a ticket, if you won't want to give back the prize if you win it.

I think it makes sense to make such a tannay, since you wouldn't want to throw away non maaser money on such a risky investment. And, if you don't consider the particular organization that is running the raffle to be the best place for your tzedaka, then you just shouldn't participate

I think that choosing one tzedaka over another because of a raffle is not the best criterion by which to choosesa tzedaka, but I don't think there's anything wrong with a yeshiva running a raffle like that. Those who would give anyway to the yeshiva will do so anyway, and, this way, you also get tzedaka from other people. If they have less than perfect ways of choosing their tzedaka, that's their business. Also, if it helps people part with tzedaka money that they have difficulty parting with, even better.

shalhevet

Tue, Dec 23 2008, 5:45 am

EvenI wrote:

Maybe it's halachically okay, but it sounds morally wrong. You won't use your own money for the raffle, but if you win it suddenly becomes yours?

Maybe you'd be willing to make such a tnai with me? You pay the $180, but if you win it was not your money, but mine, and I'll pay you back? Wink

(And I agree about the amother abuse - I didn't see any personal or private information in that post, nor info as to why the person needed to post as amother. )

Raisin

Tue, Dec 23 2008, 5:49 am

Zus wrote:

Inspired wrote:

amother wrote:

A real apartment? That's crazy!

Please explain to me how this is an appropriate use of amother. How does it not break the stated rules?

maybe they would live in it, or rent it out. thats what I would do. or sell it of course.

Zus

Tue, Dec 23 2008, 5:53 am

Raisin wrote:

Zus wrote:

Inspired wrote:

amother wrote:

A real apartment? That's crazy!

Please explain to me how this is an appropriate use of amother. How does it not break the stated rules?

maybe they would live in it, or rent it out. thats what I would do. or sell it of course.

Yes, and it's a problem. The more houses in Jerusalem are being sold to foreigners, the more the apartment prices go up. Which means that the average israeli family can't afford to buy a house in Jerusalem anymore. This is already reality here. Lots of foreigners buy apartments, prices went up, israelis can't afford to buy there and go somewhere else. In the end, lots of apartments are empty for a good deal of the time while at the same time there is such a need for housing here.

EvenI

Tue, Dec 23 2008, 6:13 am

shalhevet wrote:

EvenI wrote:

(And I agree about the amother abuse - I didn't see any personal or private information in that post, nor info as to why the person needed to post as amother. )

It's not that you're not using your own money for the raffle. You are stating from the outset that the money is either your own or your maaser money, depending on the outcome. The status of the money is undecided at the outset.

I think it's just a mechanism that enables everyone to benefit. The tzedaka organization that runs the raffle obviously intends that the winner will get the prize, but knows that the prize will not belong to the winner if ma'aser money was used to buy the ticket. At the same time, the organization wants people to give them their ma'aser money. So, they advise making the tnai to encourage people to give their ma'aser.

For the person entering the raffle, it boils down to doing two things at once: entering a raffle, and giving ma'aser money - because he can intend to give a donation if he wins and that donation can be at least the value of the ticket. The tzedaka doesn't lose anything because it gets the donation anyway. I suppose that if he just takes the winnings and doesnt donate anything, then the morality is questonable, but, even then, it's not so terrible because his participation is still a positive contribution to the fundraiser, in that the enticement of the prize brought in donations.

(I'm obviously no posek - I just heard that this was ok from a yeshiva that runs a raffle, and I have no idea whether poskim are cholek on this.)

devowitz

Tue, Dec 23 2008, 6:22 am

shalhevet wrote:

EvenI wrote:

(And I agree about the amother abuse - I didn't see any personal or private information in that post, nor info as to why the person needed to post as amother. )

These raffles are usually against pretty steep odds. I'm talking they make the lottery look good. I once discussed this with a raffle organizer and got some of the lowdown of how it works.

Suffice it to say, that your donation can come from maaser because you ain't gonna win. The raffle pretext is to rock your yetzer horah to sleep, and make it easier to give.

ChossidMom

Tue, Dec 23 2008, 8:42 am

amother wrote:

A real apartment? That's crazy!

I agree with Zus that there is nothing inappropriate about the amother use here. I know Shalhevet hates it but it still does not go against any rules and I, personally, am not bothered by it in the least,
I also think that HooRyou is right that this person didn't mean that the OP is crazy. Just that it's pretty wild that they're raffling off an apartment. Let's not get carried away.
Amother - it would have been nice if you would have explained why you used amother so as to minimize bashing. That's what Yael's rules really say.

ChossidMom

Tue, Dec 23 2008, 8:44 am

I also agree with devowitz that your chances are next to nothing for winning. But, hey, if you want to win you gotta buy a ticket, right? Can't expect God to just plop down an apartment deed... So, if this is your hishtadlus at getting a stake in Yerushalayim and the money goes to charity - GO FOR IT, Wif!

shalhevet

Tue, Dec 23 2008, 9:02 am

EvenI wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

EvenI wrote:

(And I agree about the amother abuse - I didn't see any personal or private information in that post, nor info as to why the person needed to post as amother. )

I'm not trying to argue this halachically - I also have no idea if there are different opinions on this.

I am looking at this more from a moral/ lifnim mishuras hadin standpoint.

My maaser money is not mine; it's in trust with me to decide what to do with it. There are halachos who take precedence to receive maaser - those closer to you, various causes etc. So let's say I live in Beersheva or Haifa or even a different Yerushalmi neighbourhood and there's a worthy yeshiva where I (my husband) sometimes davens, or sometimes goes to learn there. I have $180 left in maaser money that I expected to give to that yeshiva. Now someone offers me the chance to take part in the raffle, so I give the money to this yeshiva instead. Allowed? yes. But there's something not quite right about it.

Now if I give an extra $180 to this yeshiva that I was planning to use to take my family out for a meal in a restaurant, that is something different.

So it's my maaser money 'taking the chance' so to speak, but I am not willing to.

In the end Mr X gives no extra money to tzedaka, he just redirects his maaser to a cause that is halachically less preferable. (Because if it was halachically preferable, he would have given them without the raffle.)

Every year my dds come home from school with raffle books to sell for kimcha d'pischa in a different town in Israel (not Yerushalayim and not where we live). They also give the girls all kinds of incentives/ prizes for selling however many tickets. Among other reasons, we don't let them sell them, because we believe people should be giving kdp to one of our local tzedaka organizations.

ora_43

Tue, Dec 23 2008, 9:05 am

EvenI and devowitz--
I get that raffle tickets are meant to make it easier for people to give, but isn't that a problem? Tzedaka and maaser is supposed to be a test, no? After all, Hashem doesn't need our help helping the poor or needy causes, He's just giving us the chance to be a part of it. By making raffles an acceptable use of money, how are we challenging ourselves?

I can think of people who've spent thousands of dollars or more in casinos or on lottery ticket--it wasn't exactly a challenge of their middot or emuna in Hashem or recognition that only He provides and we must "give him of his own." It was just gambling. From the perspective of the donor (not the cause), how is this any different?

wif

Tue, Dec 23 2008, 10:42 am

Just for the record - the raffle is planned in such a way that it will have better odds of winning than other raffles with prizes only a quarter the size of ours!

Thanks for all the feedback! Keep it coming!

gryp

Tue, Dec 23 2008, 10:50 am

We have a similiar thing going on here. I do think it's a good idea.
The only problem is that I always think I'm going to win. Rolling Eyes

Ruchel

Tue, Dec 23 2008, 10:53 am

Ground floor? I would sell it if I gained it (security).

wif

Tue, Dec 23 2008, 1:27 pm

Where do you live GR? What are the details of that raffle? Where's the apt.? How much is a ticket? etc. Thanks

gryp

Tue, Dec 23 2008, 1:42 pm

See this, wif:
http://www.tenyad.org/Auction/.....n.asp