Deleted | Imamother

wif

Tue, Dec 23 2008, 11:34 am

Thanks GR! It seems most other raffles with prizes of this caliber are charging 360$. We're charging $180 in the hopes that it'll help us find success despite the terrible economy. I'd love to hear people's opinions about this! Thanks!

greenfire

Tue, Dec 23 2008, 11:45 am

interesting idea ...

EvenI

Tue, Dec 23 2008, 11:46 am

shalhevet wrote:

EvenI wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

EvenI wrote:

I think you can make a tanai that the money you are giving is ma'aser money unless you win, and, if you win, it is not ma'aser money - so then the prize can be yours and you can pay ma'aser money separately. I think all of these types of yeshiva raffles are done with the assumption that people will do this. I know a yeshiva that runs a raffle with a money prize. They advise you to make this tannai if you buy a ticket, if you won't want to give back the prize if you win it.

Maybe it's halachically okay, but it sounds morally wrong. You won't use your own money for the raffle, but if you win it suddenly becomes yours?

Maybe you'd be willing to make such a tnai with me? You pay the $180, but if you win it was not your money, but mine, and I'll pay you back? Wink

(And I agree about the amother abuse - I didn't see any personal or private information in that post, nor info as to why the person needed to post as amother. )

It's not that you're not using your own money for the raffle. You are stating from the outset that the money is either your own or your maaser money, depending on the outcome. The status of the money is undecided at the outset.

I think it's just a mechanism that enables everyone to benefit. The tzedaka organization that runs the raffle obviously intends that the winner will get the prize, but knows that the prize will not belong to the winner if ma'aser money was used to buy the ticket. At the same time, the organization wants people to give them their ma'aser money. So, they advise making the tnai to encourage people to give their ma'aser.

For the person entering the raffle, it boils down to doing two things at once: entering a raffle, and giving ma'aser money - because he can intend to give a donation if he wins and that donation can be at least the value of the ticket. The tzedaka doesn't lose anything because it gets the donation anyway. I suppose that if he just takes the winnings and doesnt donate anything, then the morality is questonable, but, even then, it's not so terrible because his participation is still a positive contribution to the fundraiser, in that the enticement of the prize brought in donations.

(I'm obviously no posek - I just heard that this was ok from a yeshiva that runs a raffle, and I have no idea whether poskim are cholek on this.)

I'm not trying to argue this halachically - I also have no idea if there are different opinions on this.

I am looking at this more from a moral/ lifnim mishuras hadin standpoint.

My maaser money is not mine; it's in trust with me to decide what to do with it. There are halachos who take precedence to receive maaser - those closer to you, various causes etc. So let's say I live in Beersheva or Haifa or even a different Yerushalmi neighbourhood and there's a worthy yeshiva where I (my husband) sometimes davens, or sometimes goes to learn there. I have $180 left in maaser money that I expected to give to that yeshiva. Now someone offers me the chance to take part in the raffle, so I give the money to this yeshiva instead. Allowed? yes. But there's something not quite right about it.

Now if I give an extra $180 to this yeshiva that I was planning to use to take my family out for a meal in a restaurant, that is something different.

So it's my maaser money 'taking the chance' so to speak, but I am not willing to.

In the end Mr X gives no extra money to tzedaka, he just redirects his maaser to a cause that is halachically less preferable. (Because if it was halachically preferable, he would have given them without the raffle.)

Every year my dds come home from school with raffle books to sell for kimcha d'pischa in a different town in Israel (not Yerushalayim and not where we live). They also give the girls all kinds of incentives/ prizes for selling however many tickets. Among other reasons, we don't let them sell them, because we believe people should be giving kdp to one of our local tzedaka organizations.

If I understand you correctly, I think you're confusing two issues: one is whether an individual should use maaser money to buy a ticket at all, and the other is the tnai. Or maybe you're not confusing them but you're only talking about the first issue.

An individual who buys a ticket al tnai that it may or may not be maaser has the same responsibility as usual to determine if the tzedaka is one he should be giving to. If he shouldn't be giving to it, then he has to decide if he can use other money to buy a ticket, and I guess that depends on how much of his income is already being given to tzedaka.

Maybe it's an interesting question whether yeshivas and other tzedaka organizations should entice people to give maaser money for special fundraising events, given that individuals may be obligated to give maaser money to another recipient - I have no idea if the organizations are to be held responsible for that.

wif

Tue, Dec 23 2008, 11:57 am

With all due respect to the great people who have posted here, and not to belittle the important halachic and hashkafic issues being discussed...

DO YOU THINK THE RAFFLE IS A GOOD IDEA OR NOT?

We think it's a great idea, but there are some people that think the current economic crisis could still sink it. I say: while most big rich donors have gotten hit hard, the average joe is still living, and still paying his bills and feeding his family, and will still have some extra cash / maaser or otherwise to buy a $180 ticket. (especially at $30 for six months).

To be honest - this is a big undertaking, that carries with it a fair share of risk so we are very concerned.

Please tell me what you think!!?

p.s. - the apartment is really gorgeous!

freidasima

Tue, Dec 23 2008, 11:58 am

Shalhevet, we pasken like you.
We don't use maaaser money for raffles or the like and if we win something like that from a yeshiva, bought not with maaser money, we usually give the price of what we win (something like a toaster, not an apartment!) to zedoko.

Zus

Tue, Dec 23 2008, 11:59 am

No I don't think it's a good idea to give yet another jerusalem apartment to chutznikim unless they come on aliya.

wif

Tue, Dec 23 2008, 12:01 pm

Zus wrote:

No I don't think it's a good idea to give yet another jerusalem apartment to chutznikim unless they come on aliya.

Why is their desire to be in Eretz Yisroel (albeit twice a year) less valid than yours? Remember, they could be going to florida instead!

EvenI

Tue, Dec 23 2008, 12:02 pm

I just spoke to my husband about this. We can't use maaser money to buy a ticket, but that's fine, because we can just about afford $180 for an apartment. Thank Gd! Just when we thought we couldn't afford an apartment in Yerushalayim. Hashem listens, eh? But just one thing you should bear in mind: when we win it, we plan to sell up and buy something in a different neighborhood that we prefer, so perhaps you should just get something there in the first place instead, ok? PM me for my preferred location and then I'll send you the $180 and then you can hand over the keys when you've had the place painted and cleaned. OK? Oh, and we have our own beds and bookcases already, so you don't need to worry about those.

How exciting!!!! Very Happy

There's no small print, is there? Scratching Head

Zus

Tue, Dec 23 2008, 12:05 pm

because we have a true housing crisis going on here at the moment, for the most part because many apartments are owned by foreigners who don't live there all the time. It's driving up the prices for real estate AND it's taking up space, which we don't have much of. As a result, jerusalemites who actually live in the city are being driven out because they can't afford to buy there.

EvenI

Tue, Dec 23 2008, 12:08 pm

wif, I don't think that all the hashkafa and halacha discussion is so irrelevant to your question, because things like this might be in bad taste al pi da'as Torah. (Although maybe you've already asked da'as Torah, since this is a yeshiva you're collecting for.)

shalhevet

Tue, Dec 23 2008, 12:11 pm

EvenI wrote:

No, I was talking about both issues - maybe not separating them clearly enough.

One - buying al tnai bothers me. As I said, would you be willing to do this with me?

Two - a person should be giving to causes that are halachically preferable, whether because of their location, because they benefit him, the type of tzedaka etc. Who says I am allowed to give my tzedoko money to the Yeshiva of the Arctic Circle when my local yeshiva is in debt?

So I suppose it bothers me that someone is using a raffle to siphon off maaser money from other causes - if it wasn't maaser money it wouldn't be a problem. The other problem is that when you give $180 to wif's dh's yeshiva, you are actually giving a substantial part towards the cost of buying the apartment, and not to the yeshiva at all.

Disclaimer: none of these points are supposed to be halachic, just my feelings on the matter. Possibly there are no halachic problems with any of this.

wif

Tue, Dec 23 2008, 12:12 pm

EvenI wrote:

First of all - our das Torah has ok'd this raffle. As far as I know, and as someone stated earlier, these raffles are allowed because Am Yisroel Kulom Tzadikim, and they want to give tzedakah anyway - they just need a little help overcoming the yetzer hara. I think it's been proven that at the end of the day raffles etc. bring more money to tzedaka organizations than if they would just fundraise without them.

As far as I know, the vast majority of people do use their maaser money for such things, so as far as the success of our raffle - I'm not concerned about that.

Mrs. XYZ

Tue, Dec 23 2008, 12:26 pm

Quote:

The other problem is that when you give $180 to wif's dh's yeshiva, you are actually giving a substantial part towards the cost of buying the apartment, and not to the yeshiva at all.

But if not for the raffle most of these people would not give $180, they would maybe give 50. So in essence they know that they are giving $50 for the yeshiva, and 130 for the building, which there is really nothing wrong with that, besides for the shaila of if they can use maaser money for that $130.

Mrs.K

Tue, Dec 23 2008, 12:27 pm

Zus wrote:

Zus I'm not sure which area of Jerusalem you are situated in, but in Ramat Eshkol and surrounding areas (Arzai, Maalot Dafna, Sanhedria, etc.) It is very rare to find an empty apartment. I agree with you that the outlandish price hiking is due to the infiltration of foreigners but as far as 'apartments sitting empty', not so in this neighborhood. It is very rare to find any empty apartment at all. Unless maybe you were referring to foreigners buying them and then renting them out? Or maybe you meant neighborhoods where older American's purchase "retirement homes" like Rechavia? Perhaps I am just misunderstanding, but you've mentioned it several times on this thread and all I kept thinking is, goodness I've lived here for many years now, and I don't know of any empty apartment. Please explain.

EvenI

Tue, Dec 23 2008, 12:34 pm

shalhevet wrote:

EvenI wrote:

No, I was talking about both issues - maybe not separating them clearly enough.

One - buying al tnai bothers me. As I said, would you be willing to do this with me?

Yes, I would, if I wanted to give them $180 and you wanted a chance to win the raffle. Then, if you won, you would get your prize and I would still have to give my $180. If you lost, I would have given my $180. I don't see a problem with the tnai, as long as you would give that maaser money anyway. You are not obligated to invest your maaser money and make it grow before you give it.

Quote:

Two - a person should be giving to causes that are halachically preferable, whether because of their location, because they benefit him, the type of tzedaka etc. Who says I am allowed to give my tzedoko money to the Yeshiva of the Arctic Circle when my local yeshiva is in debt?

OK, well, as I say,I would assume that a person has the same responsibility when buying a ticket as ever with regard to what tzedaka to give to. As a case in point, we give next to nothing to any tzedaka besides DHs yeshiva, because we give chomesh to the yeshiva. Our Daas Torah says to do so. So, we won't be buying a $180 ticket for this raffle, despite my alter ego's enthusiastic post about the beds and bookcases.

Quote:

So I suppose it bothers me that someone is using a raffle to siphon off maaser money from other causes - if it wasn't maaser money it wouldn't be a problem.

Is it so clear cut that it doesn't matter which tzedaka you choose if you're spending non-maaser money? I suppose it's probably less critical, but I don't think it's trivial.

Quote:

The other problem is that when you give $180 to wif's dh's yeshiva, you are actually giving a substantial part towards the cost of buying the apartment, and not to the yeshiva at all.

I hear that about the apartment.

Quote:

Disclaimer: none of these points are supposed to be halachic, just my feelings on the matter. Possibly there are no halachic problems with any of this.

wif

Tue, Dec 23 2008, 12:40 pm

Just for the record - about $20 of each ticket sold (at least in our raffle) goes to overhead costs - I.e. the apartment!

EvenI

Tue, Dec 23 2008, 12:44 pm

wif wrote:

Just for the record - about $20 of each ticket sold (at least in our raffle) goes to overhead costs - I.e. the apartment!

Just for interest - how do you know that ahead of time, without knowing how many tickets will be sold? Or is the number limited and are you talking about a total number of tickets available?

wif

Tue, Dec 23 2008, 12:47 pm

EvenI wrote:

wif wrote:

Just for the record - about $20 of each ticket sold (at least in our raffle) goes to overhead costs - I.e. the apartment!

Just for interest - how do you know that ahead of time, without knowing how many tickets will be sold? Or is the number limited and are you talking about a total number of tickets available?

It's based on the total amount of tickets the alumni, students, and friends of the yeshiva have commited to selling. (Which happens to be just below the maximum limit set.

Strawberry

Tue, Dec 23 2008, 12:56 pm

I'll buy a ticket! Pm me with the details.

Zus

Tue, Dec 23 2008, 1:08 pm

Mrs.K wrote:

Zus wrote:

It's not so much the empty apartments but rather the fact that chutznikim buy them drive up the prices of real estate.