Gifted kids- parents please respond

red sea

Sun, Dec 28 2008, 11:47 am

Here's a bunch of questions for you gifted ones or parents of gifted children who already know it for sure;

But how do you differentiate between a smart child and a small child who is learning at an advanced pace but will even out at a certain point and a genius who no matter what will be like that their entire life?

Do you want to sit every single smart kid down for an IQ test?

And why do gifted children need enrichment, if they are truly gifted dont they just pick it all up by their own devices and their own motivation will propel them to that?

Does it always become an issue in the classroom if you dont go out of your way to teach the next grades learning materials?

Will a gifted child always seek out the next years work in math and learn it on their own or would they hypothetically just stick to certain areas that really interest them?

And what about boys?
Once they reach learning Gemara why would they need enrichment ?
They can just learn along with the class but on a higher level, no?

Can a child be gifted in only one area?

Can a gifted child also have a learning disability?

If anyone has answers, ty.

avigailmiriam

Sun, Dec 28 2008, 12:06 pm

red sea wrote:

Some do, some don't. But if a student is ahead at present, then their educational needs need to be addressed.

red sea wrote:

Do you want to sit every single smart kid down for an IQ test?

It should be pointed out that there is a difference between gifted and smart. Smart kids do well in a classroom. Gifted kids are so high above the norm that they don't really fit in in a normal educational context. At my school, they sent for gifted texting any kid who scored above the ninety ninth percentile on state exams.

red sea wrote:

And why do gifted children need enrichment, if they are truly gifted dont they just pick it all up by their own devices and their own motivation will propel them to that?

Ok, I'm sorry if this is going to sound mean. I had a tough time as a gifted kid in public school, and it's kind of an emotional issue for me.

1. Gifted kids are not a bit ahead of their classmates, they are years ahead. I was reading at a college level in middle school. Being in 7th grade English class was like being forced to sit through kindergarten. School was a torture of sitting in classes being made to review material I'd known for YEARS. It was a complete waste of time. I was bored to tears.

2. Gifted kids pick up tons on their own, but they deserve to have teachers who can TEACH them things too, just like public school kids do.

3. I know a bunch of gifted kids who spent years in public school so bored that is turned them off learning completely. That's a terrible thing to happen.

4. I believe that kids should be challeneged. I had a friend who was taking a college calculus class in fifth grade. It didn't stop her principal from requiring her to take math with her age mates and review long division. It was absolutely absurd. There is no value in having a second grader who is reading at a middle school level like I was, do phonics worksheets with her classmates.

red sea wrote:

Does it always become an issue in the classroom if you dont go out of your way to teach the next grades learning materials?

An issue for whom? The will be bored our of his or her mind with boredom, often. These aren't kids who are a year ahead, they are often YEARS ahead. And it's unfair to have a public school teacher with 29 other kids who desperately need to pass state tests tryng to cater to someone with the brain of a 10th grader in 3rd grade.

red sea wrote:

Will a gifted child always seek out the next years work in math and learn it on their own or would they hypothetically just stick to certain areas that really interest them?

Depends. Some get really turned off from leaning because they're in classes that are way below their level and they do nothing. Many people do focus, to a degree. I've been known to say I'm bad at math. I'm not; I test significantly above average. I'm so much better at verbal stuff, though, that that is where I focus my energies. As a kid, I tended to focus on areas where I could find mentoring and where they interested me. I only took math through calculus, but I made a concerted effort to learn multiple foreign languages and read tons of books, because that is what interests me. My husband was the opposite.

red sea wrote:

And what about boys?
Once they reach learning Gemara why would they need enrichment ?
They can just learn along with the class but on a higher level, no?

I can't answer this.

red sea wrote:

Can a child be gifted in only one area?

Absolutely. You get people who are fairly well rounded, and you have people who are geniuses in one area, but fairly average in others. Just like a brilliant violinist may not be a great writer, someone who is good at math may not be good at understanding advanced literature.

red sea wrote:

Can a gifted child also have a learning disability?

If anyone has answers, ty.

Absolutely. There's a really interesting case n the book Genius Denied of a boy with severe dyslexia. He was so smart that is was YEARS before anyone figured out that he was functionally illiterate and only learned how to pass tests by inferring stuff from his classmates. Also, high intelligence can mask learning issues. My ADD didn't show up until college when I had to actually put in work in school for the first time. Before that, it didn't matter if I couldn't focus to study--I could ace the tests anyway.

avigailmiriam

Sun, Dec 28 2008, 12:35 pm

RichWithNachas wrote:

I have a daughter, 7 years , beyond her age in intellegence. She speaks like a teenager, understands all adult conversations, is insulted when not included in all intellectual discussions. I realize that she needs alot more challenge then her peers. And would love ideas , because her teachers have told me thatshe is gifted. and want to have her needs met before she becomes an issue.
I would appreeciate such a forum.

Much hatzlacha to you. I have so much kavod for my mother for dealing with me when I was a kid. Gifted kids are a handful.

In about 3 years, if you were OK with it, she could probably be able to take classes at a community college. You'd have to escort hr or send he with a sibling because she would be so young, but a lot of parents do that.

Also, look into the Davidson Institute. They func highly gifted kids so they can go to special schools and get enrichment programs.

And read the book Genius Denied.

I'd like the forum to be open. I don't have gifted kids, but I have a lot of experience in the are and would like to be able ot share it.

amother

Sun, Dec 28 2008, 1:17 pm

I'm amother 11:33.

AvigailMiriam-- great answers to redsea -- I totally agree,.

Just to add --
I believe that education at a young age is more a matter of learning to learn, than of specific subject matter mastered. That goes for both gifted and "regular" kids.
So the most important thing is to expose the child to lots of educationally challenging experieces, including often neglected areas like the arts and sciences. Sometimes a child's mind is opened more by being allowed to experiment with mixing different liquids, being allowed to draw whatever she wants, or being asked what "story" she hears in a purely instrumental piece of music, than trying to "cram" a testable subject like the next academic year's phonics or math.

Opening the mind to learning and creativity is the best thing you can do for a gifted child-- and the worst thing is enforcing boredom in school year after year, which can cause not only learning but even emotional problems.

avigailmiriam

Sun, Dec 28 2008, 2:26 pm

marina wrote:

Quote:

In about 3 years, if you were OK with it, she could probably be able to take classes at a community college. You'd have to escort hr or send he with a sibling because she would be so young, but a lot of parents do that.

A ten year old? You really think so? I have a ten year old and she's up there, but I don't know how community college would work. Would she just skip high school and try to get a college diploma? Or is the community college credits instead of high school? I would need to go with her? WHY? Wouldn't the other college kids be angry at the situation, at having a baby in their classes?

Community colleges are usually open enrollment, so you can take any classes you want and pay for credits. Some people skip high school; I know many who work out an arrangement with the high school where they take some classes at the college and some at the high school. After their junior year in HS, they usually have an AA degree and transfer to a 4 year school. Some kids only accumulate like one class a semester in credits their first few years while they're young.

A bright ten your old can easily keep up with the writing level in a CC English Comp class. I've TAed for them. She would probably be fine in many 100 level classes.

If a teacher can keep the classroom in line, then the other students should leave her alone. It would be different if she was dorming or living on campus, but most kids don't do that when they go to college.

If the school is in a safe neighborhood and you felt comfortable with it, you could drop her off and pick her up after class--my mother would come with me during my first semester there or send my older sister with me. Also, some colleges require this for liability reasons when dealing with young kids.

When your daughter is a bit older, you might seriously look at Simon's Rock College of Bard, which allows bright kids to skip their last 2-3 years of high school and go to a college with other kids their age. They stay for 2 years, earn their AA nad HS diploma and transfer to a bigger school for the BA.

And Johns Hopkins University runs superb programs for gifted children. They're academic summer camps and they're really amazing.

Tzippora

Sun, Dec 28 2008, 2:36 pm

I agree -I could easily have kept up with a Western Civ course by the time I was in high school, and wish I had done it. Man, I wish I went to a real college!

It's so important to help these kids direct their interests - I found myself looking for more to read or more information or ANYTHING and it was hard. In the end, I was lucky my dad could provide the resources on his own, but it would have been so refreshing to have a class or a study group that was on my level.

I also did learn gemara and other seforim with my father, and thoroughly trounced the boys he was learning with/tutoring. I enjoyed it, and was good at it. Even though I was following the gemara without a sefer Smile

I have seen smart boys get frustrated with regular classes - they often want to do bekiyus because they GET IT ALREADY and may need a yeshiva that will let them do it. I know that's how I felt when I tried to go at the blatt-a-year pace that some of the boys I knew were doing.

AM, both my DH and I have figured out only in the past year that we're actually ADD - and only once we were challenged. Me at work, him at law school. I called my dad and said "Daddy, you know I'm ADD, right?" and he said, "Of course you are, so am I. But we're smart, so we work around it".

Well thanks for telling me now, Daddy Tongue Out

msctwg

Sun, Dec 28 2008, 3:59 pm

This is actually a vey interesting thread. My daughter is definately somewhere up there in the gifted range. We recently had her tested, and we were quite shocked that she didn't make the cut. This is someone who does her sister's homework 3 years ubove her. She has the most amazing head for numbers, but her hebrew vocab isn't up to par, so I guess that is why she didn't make it. Her teacher was also shocked. In any event, we kept her back a year in kindergarden as she is an end of kislev baby, and emotionally we didn't want her to fight over her place, but to feel confident. She is also the 2nd child which I think also makes a diffrerence.
So here's my point. While she is most definately gifted in math, in other areas, she is further behind. And has less self confedance. This leads to difficulties, both with her and her sibs.
I would love to have her have more of a challenge in math but in other areas she needs more help.

amother

Sun, Dec 28 2008, 4:24 pm

I'm not sure I agree with encouraging young kids to take college courses. If there's a purpose, great. But if you just want to challenge them (an excellent goal), then I think a more casual setting is a better idea.

College has a lot of homework, often well over an hour a day for each course. And the standard of behavior is much higher than that in an elementary school. Kids who can read or do math like an adult can't necessarily sit still, focus on homework for hours a day, and deal with the emotional impact of being different from everyone else around them like an adult.

Actually, if anything, most gifted kids I've met have a lot more trouble focusing on lectures and homework than other kids. So while the intellectual level of college might work, the academic expectations often don't. And, with no offense meant to anyone here or their children, in my experience gifted children are often more socially fragile. More sensitive, quicker to withdraw--externally they might do better with adults, who are more socially reserved and bully less, but sometimes the sense of alienation is actually more acute outside their own peer group despite the outer calm.

On the other hand, I think it's very important to give gifted kids some way to learn study skills and discipline outside the classroom, because they probably aren't being challenged in those areas within the classroom.

There's also the problem of social adjustment, as others have said. Social contact with peers of one's own age is vital. A ten-year-old is not going to learn how to develop as a ten-year-old from being around 20-year-olds.

And finally, intelligence doesn't automatically lead to understanding. In science and math it's fairly straightforward; in literature and social science less so. Shakespeare is a good example. Sure, I could understand what the words in Shakespeare's plays said at a fairly young age, but I didn't grasp the real meaning and humor like I do now. It wasn't a matter of intellect, it was a question of lacking the adult knowledge of social class, s-xuality, etc, necessary to really appreciate and understand his works. A 10-year-old who does math on a college level can do college math, a 10-year-old whose reading comprehension is on a college level can't necessarily do college literature.

avigailmiriam

Sun, Dec 28 2008, 4:30 pm

amother wrote:

It's a hard situation all around. On the one hand, giftedkids are socially fragile and their peers can be brutal. I hated when people told me to go socialize with my agemates--they were boring at best, and bullies at worst. As a kid, I thrived talking to adults and being with people older than I was.

The issue with reading comp. is really hard, I agree. 10 year olds, even brilliant ones, miss lots of nuance and complexity. I have yet to find a good solution for how to deal with a highly intelligent child that satisfies everything--short of homeschooling. And homeschooling a gifted kid is really, really hard.

cubbie

Sun, Dec 28 2008, 4:42 pm

avigailmiriam wrote:

amother wrote:

Homeschooling can only be possible if the parent who is homeschooling is as brilliant as the kid - which isn't always the case. My brother was homeschooled for a year at age 6, that was ok, but older than that it would have been my brother homeschooling my mother! I remember when my brother was 10 my mother decided to start a math degree, she gave it up when my brother was explaining the course to her and she wasn't getting it, while to her 10 year old son it was obvious.
Yes he had a very tough time at school, and he was at one of the top academic London Private schools, but for him to have missed out on going to college at the right age would have been tragic, as that was the first time in his life that he fitted in, he was the right age socially and in a place where he finally met and made friends with peers who where of his academic ability.

avigailmiriam

Sun, Dec 28 2008, 4:46 pm

cubbie wrote:

avigailmiriam wrote:

amother wrote:

The parents I know who homeschool high intelligence children are either
1. As brilliant as their kids.
OR
2. Smart and willing to work logistical wonders to cobble together mentors and an education from online courses (Johns Hopkins University offers superb ones for gifted kids), local college classes, private tutors, etc.

I loved college. I started at 16 and absolutely flourished there.