Gifted kids- parents please respond

ora_43

Sun, Dec 28 2008, 6:16 pm

I still don't know what the OP meant by "gifted," but I'll add my two cents anyway.

I don't consider myself gifted (and nobody else has bothered to check, so my opinion's all we have to go on here). I do know what it's like to be way above grade level, though, albeit not because I was a genius but because the school I was in aimed for the lowest common denominator academically (and usually overshot). And I'm pretty sure my younger sister would qualify as gifted. So that's where I'm coming from.

I think the best thing to do with gifted kids is get them involved in an activity or interest. The best is something they can do independently, or almost independently. For example: my sister used to take apart old dead machines (remote controls, telephones, etc). My physics professor did all kinds of experiments in the basement (actually, that probably shouldn't have been done independently, given the stories he told. Ten-year-old boys and powerful electric currents are a dangerous mix no matter how smart the kid is). Another friend got into art. The best part about this is you're teaching an important life skill--to learn independently. And another important skill--to entertain yourself. That's something gifted kids tend to need.

The second crucial step is an understanding teacher or school. My school might have been painfully boring, but I had a few awesome teachers who made school interesting for a year or so at a time by letting me do my own thing or do some activity with whoever else already knew the material. It didn't have to be anything complicated--just letting the kids who knew how to read read quietly to themselves while working on basic words with the other second-graders, for example. Or letting kids who finished the unit on multiplication before the rest of the class work together on a more advanced workbook.

Do everything possible to avoid teachers who get annoyed when kids don't learn according to the schedule. Like parents of kids with other special needs, parents of gifted kids need to be extra involved with their child's school and willing to fight to get their child's needs met. This usually involves convincing teachers that your child really is above grade level, then convincing them that boredom and behavioral problems are linked, then getting them to do something about the boredom.

Make sure your kid gets the skills he or she needs to succeed. Being unusually smart is pretty much worthless without discipline and study skills.

College is great for teens, say 15 or 16 year olds. But for younger kids--what's the point? It's not like a 14-year-old needs a degree, and the risk of putting them under too much pressure from the foreign social scene and academic pressure is too high, IMO. The exception would be for kids who absolutely love something they can only learn in a higher academic setting (physics, chemistry, medicine) and really, truly want to push themselves to do it at a young age.

If your teen is going to college, make sure the social atmosphere is good, nothing too pressured or too wild.

Now for some stereotyping: Gifted kids tend to be sensitive and sometimes "high strung." They absorb a lot from their surroundings but often don't know what to do with it all. This can cause fearfulness, which is normal among children, but with gifted kids the problem is that the things they're afraid of really exist (it's one thing calming a seven-year-old who fears the dark, it's another to calm a seven-year-old who fears murderers like the one she read about in the paper last week).

IMO the best way to deal with it is honesty, same as for any kid, just more honesty and sooner than you'd normally use with a kid the same age.

To sum up: A mix of understanding teachers and stimulating outside interests, coupled with an early exit to college for interested teens, can work really well for gifted kids. Gifted kids need to be watched to make sure they aren't just "sliding by" on their intelligence and are actually learning study skills. And gifted kids can be fearful due to their knowledge surpassing their sense of perspective (and perhaps more importantly, their adult apathy)--this problem can often be overcome with a mix of loving reassurance, honestly, and teaching the child to control his or her state of physical calm as much as is reasonable.

mimivan

Sun, Dec 28 2008, 10:53 pm

I haven't read the rest of this thread, but I am hoping the experience in our family might help others.

As I've discussed often on this forum, I have a five year old who was diagnosed with PDD at the age of 3 and had very severe speech delays, social development issues (he only liked to play by himself and would hit in gan very often) and sensory issues (still has this...likes to touch VERY hard)

After 2 years in a special gan my doctor was shocked that he was labeled PDD...she said kids with this do not improve ba'h b'h the way he has..(now he is almost 100% normal..b'h still with sensory issues) recently b'h he has been rediagnosed as not PDD--they say they can't account for his delays early on, but he no longer has them.

He can read like a kid 2 years older, his memory is photographic b'h and he is a very "deep" kid. However, he is quite sensitive and yet doesn't always pick up on social cues. We are noticing b'h he is becoming more savvy though, socially, and hopeful will continue as he is mainstreamed iy'h into a regular school.

There are many kids who have delays because they are quite bright. He is the type who thinks outside of the box. My goal in raising him is to pay attention to what is going on with him and to put him in whatever school situation where he is the most happy and not worry about "status" in terms of the "best" schools.

amother

Mon, Dec 29 2008, 8:19 am

avigailmiriam wrote:

marina wrote:

Here's my two cents.

Many people disagree with skipping grades for gifted kids. However, recent research shows that it is actually has many benefits to skip kids and unfortunately, many educators are not aware of this. They assume the child will be stunted emotionally, etc, but it is just not accurate for many kids.

Yes, grade skipping goes in and out of fashion. I was allowed to skip once (plus leave high school after my junior year), my brother, 3 grades below me and in the same school system, was not. I understand that it stopped being acceptable educational practice in the late eighties and nineties and is now becoming acceptable again.

When I did skip, I had to go and get a lengthy psych evaluation. Or, at least, that's what I'm told it was. I thought a nice man had just come to play with me for a couple of hours.

I was skipped 3 grades- first I was pushed to a higher grade
(3rd-4th) just for math, then I totally skipped 5th grade. in 10th grade I was with the 11th and 12th graders for physics, then skipped 11th, and went to college instead of 12th, but was officially considered to be in 12th... I had lots of social issues being the youngest in the class by far. I really wasnt mature enough, had no freinds, and thought people would like me better if they knew how smart I was (after all, my parents seemed to love me more bec of my brain so why shouldnt my classmates), but by doing that they all thought I was a stuck up show off and had such a hard time socially and emotionally...
my son now is showing himself to be quite gifted... I dont think I'd skip him, I think I want to move to a place where they have a very good gifted program for frum kids... skipping didnt work for me, I dont think it would work for my son...

Seraph

Mon, Dec 29 2008, 8:30 am

marina wrote:

Quote:

In about 3 years, if you were OK with it, she could probably be able to take classes at a community college. You'd have to escort hr or send he with a sibling because she would be so young, but a lot of parents do that.

A ten year old? You really think so? I have a ten year old and she's up there, but I don't know how community college would work. Would she just skip high school and try to get a college diploma? Or is the community college credits instead of high school? I would need to go with her? WHY? Wouldn't the other college kids be angry at the situation, at having a baby in their classes?

Marina, in Ohio there is a program called the PSEOP- post secondary enrollment option program, in which the government pays for you to take college courses at the local college (Tri C and cleveland state are just some of the colleges that do that)- on the condition that you pass the courses- if you fail them you pay for them. you get both high school and college credits for these college classes. I was enrolled in such a program- I can tell you about it if you're interested...

gryp

Mon, Dec 29 2008, 8:45 am

Quote:

As I've discussed often on this forum, I have a five year old who was diagnosed with PDD at the age of 3 and had very severe speech delays, social development issues (he only liked to play by himself and would hit in gan very often) and sensory issues (still has this...likes to touch VERY hard)

After 2 years in a special gan my doctor was shocked that he was labeled PDD...she said kids with this do not improve ba'h b'h the way he has..(now he is almost 100% normal..b'h still with sensory issues) recently b'h he has been rediagnosed as not PDD--they say they can't account for his delays early on, but he no longer has them.

He can read like a kid 2 years older, his memory is photographic b'h and he is a very "deep" kid. However, he is quite sensitive and yet doesn't always pick up on social cues. We are noticing b'h he is becoming more savvy though, socially, and hopeful will continue as he is mainstreamed iy'h into a regular school.

(Mimivan, every single word you wrote here fits my Mendel (except for the PDD diagnosis because I thought he was just like any other kid.. until I saw other kids.) It's weird to me that I didn't write this.)

chanchy123

Mon, Dec 29 2008, 10:47 am

amother wrote:

I was painfully bored in school. I would have loved some sort of gifted program. What I didn't realize when I was young is that my too-easy schooling has had the long-term effects too - now, as an adult, I really don't know how to buckle down and work hard. I didn't have any experience with just needing to be persistent. So for that reason alone I now wish I would have been more challenged.

Same here. In fact, I find that while I was considered gifted as a child, I no longer feel gifted as an adult. My college work was average, I had an easy degree that was less of a challange than high shcool. Only now, as a married woman with a job have I learned to actaully fulfil tasks. B"H my DH is way more gifted than I ever was, our goog friends are all highly inteligent, my co-workers are all extremely inteligent, and my work is very challenging.
I wish someone would have challanged me as a student, since I could loaf around and get great grades nobody realy cared what I did in class (usually read a book) or even if I came to class (usually didn't) this was pretty much the case from first to 12 grade. I had one teacher (7th and 8th grade) who made a point to challange me with extra work and I am so thankful to her.

Fox

Mon, Dec 29 2008, 12:45 pm

Oh, no! Not another closed forum! I beg of you! LOL

Let me throw another perspective into the hopper:

It seems to me that virtually any child who is able to consistently keep up with the rigors of a day school education would probably meet the definition of "gifted" in a typical secular school. How many secular schools -- including highly competitive ones -- do you know that require every child to, at a minimum, read and/or write in two or three languages? How many schools teach core components of the curriculum using primary sources? Granted, there are a handful of specialty schools that include rigorous bilingual curricula, but they are not typical of even a top-notch suburban school system in the U.S.

Bottom line: what we consider "normal" achievement and proficiency within the Jewish school system would be far, far above average virtually anywhere else. The real problem, it seems to me, is that our classrooms are run in such a manner that a student who exhibits even the slightest advance or delay in a specific subject cannot be accommodated.

When I attended a university laboratory school in the 1960s and 1970s, the goal of teachers was to provide as much programmed, individualized instruction as possible. Obviously, not every subject lent itself to such an approach, but many core subjects did. Thus, a student who was gifted in math could leap ahead of his cohort while a student who was gifted in verbal skills could zoom ahead in literature and English. No one had to be identified as "gifted" or the opposite -- you worked with teacher facilitation at a pace that produced mastery of the concepts. If it took you a short time, then you moved on; if it took longer, then so be it. Gifted children were not assigned busywork, and less talented children did not slow down the class.

I honestly don't know what happened to this model of instruction. If anything, computer-based instruction should make it easier to facilitate mastery-based learning. Instead, my children's schools use their state-of-the-art computer lab to allow the kids to play games twice a week, the teachers struggle to keep everyone "on task" on the same concept at the same time, and anyone who learns a bit faster must be labeled as "gifted" while anyone who takes a bit longer is immediately hauled off for exhaustive learning disability testing.

Please forgive me if I sound overly strident, but I consider the majority of schools today -- both Jewish and secular -- to be engaged in educational malpractice. How people learn is not a mystery; anybody can go to the library and read a couple of decades' worth of Phi Beta Kappa (the honorary education society) publications and have a pretty good idea. Yet ask your child's teacher or principal about integrating some simple programmed learning exercises into the mix, and you'll be told how often they give spelling tests.

Yes, I agree that there are individuals who need special attention at either end of the spectrum of learning. But most kids don't need special labels, special "enrichment", or any other "program". They need what all children need: pedagogical/androgogical methods that allow them to learn at an individual pace, master the material, and then move on.

We endlessly debate birthing methods, eagerly track down references on obstetricians, and harangue one another about epidurals and nursing; but when it comes to insisting on demonstratably successful teaching methods in our schools, most of us -- including me -- cower like rabbits in the face of entrenched school systems. The perfect birth and all the nursing in the world doesn't make up for what we willingly do to our children in subsequent years.

mo5

Tue, Dec 30 2008, 5:51 am

You are so right.

As a teacher & mother of pretty smart kids, I can see how our (not only Jewish) school systems are a bit messed up.
There were some times when the kids can learn at their own pace (some slower, some faster)(ie. when it came to learning how to read) and some of the teachers make the effort to provide extension/simplification, but really creating modules where kids just go at their own pace is the way to go. I think the Achei Temimim elementary school in Pittsburgh has such a system for Chumash.

But especially at a senior level...there are these short periods, teachers go in and then out of the classrooms, new subjects start every 45 minutes and this makes it harder to do any kind of self-paced learning effectively.

Also you mentioned that you did this in University. There is a difference. Age & Motivation. Younger children need more help staying on task, learning a new set of skills or concepts.

Imaonwheels

Tue, Dec 30 2008, 7:32 am

And I in working with hanhalot recommend strongly against "programmed learning" and consider it a failure. I did go to such a school and excelled. We had electives and could choose to take any course in level 1 through 5, 5 being AP. That was HS. We also had a lot of attention paid to individual learning levels and styles in elementary. We were a group of intelligent, very knowledgeable in facts, yet very poor in chinuch and development.

Jewish learning is holistic and that is why it accommodates children of all abilities. Much of the science of education has produced dismal results. The setting of school (as a opposed to a normative cheder setting) is a major obstacle. I agree that the current curriculum is more difficult than a ps, no big deal. However the kodesh/chol dichotomy and the introduction of English subject too early to meet secular timetables are done at the expense of some of the children. In an ideal setting there is no way a child would even see ABC until his Hebrew reading and writing is firmly established. If he cannot yet read Chumash with Rashi then he should not be taught another language. At some point the dayschools will have to decide whether there shita will be Jewish or not. The grades 1-12, calling HS mesivta (a HS aged boy has finished mesivta) and other misuse of terms.

Why does a true Jewish shita accomodate all levels? Because acquiring facts and skills are just tools. Skills are developed by use. A shita without extensive practice will fail. One may practice a more basic skill and another may practice explaining a makloches rishonim.

Jewish learning is by definition a process that is called rosh, toch sof or form, content comprehension. This is why in a cheder there is never a variation from the kometz alef oh method to the point that this method is said to be a necessity for yiras shamayim. We learn the shape of a letter, then its sound and only after its meaningful use. This is also why the next step is to learn how to learn Torah shebktav, always learning to learn. The only thing a child must know by Bar Mitzva is how to learn and the dauily actions required of him as a Jew. These 2 goals and that which build yiras shamayim should be the focus of all chinuch before BM.

Tzippora

Tue, Dec 30 2008, 7:44 am

Imaonwheels wrote:

Are you in Israel?

We're going to clash, a lot, because you don't seem to believe in education for practical purposes OR for enabling a child to think, contemplate, develop complex ideas and improve their critical thinking skills. It's so you can learn Torah. Full stop.

I disagree. And I have seen endless value come out of my education. I also think that your view of what and how a child should think and learn is far too rigid - there is only one way to become a baal yir'ah, and that's YOUR method? I think not. Your values are not mine, in this case... and frankly I find in your values the anti-intellectual strain of Judaism that is leading to the dumbing down (educational malpractice, as Fox would say) of the Orthodox, and particularly the Bais Yaakov/yeshivish, children today.

I don't know a whole lot about educational methods - but I do know that I don't think that Jewish schools do a particularly good job even of educating your average students. We may learn Hebrew and English - but how many people do you know coming out of a frum school that can write a quality paper? How many people do you know coming out that can handle rigorous analysis? And yes, many high quality non Jewish schools do require you to read and write a second language as well. Most Jewish schools aren't willing to pay people who are educated, motivated, or excited about giving our kids the breadth of knowledge even that my DH got at one of the top MO day schools. And the gifted kids are just the first casualties because they bump up against this barrier younger than most. I know I did. And the rest of them hit it when they reach college and realize how far behind they are - Oh, wait, I forgot, college is assur.

In short, I think that if we were less scared of our children thinking, we might be better at helping them learn.

bella

Tue, Dec 30 2008, 8:11 am

GR wrote:

Quote:

Do a google search for Asperger's Syndrome and you both might find information that is very close to home. Also, the book, "Quirky Kids" by Klass and Costello, deals with similar type of issues. I have two (maybe three, she's still a bit young to tell) kids like this. The good news for those of you with younger kids, is that now as a high school senior at age 16, my quirky kid is doing very well and has "grown out of" a lot of these issues. Personally, I see it more as a personality type, rather than a disorder, since he really didn't need any major accommodations in his education. Just understanding - from the school, from us, from friends and himself!

My 11 year old has many of the same type of characteristics, but he's much more easy-going in many ways and eager to please. He hasn't had nearly the same amount of difficulty in school. As opposed to my older son who couldn't (and still can't) see the logic of many rules, so doesn't feel that they apply to him. For example, one of the worst things he did in school when he was younger, was to sit hanging off of his desk; sometimes with his hands up under his shirt so that his stomach was exposed. A lot of that is sensory based, but to the school, it was a chutzpah that he didn't listen to the rule of how you are supposed to sit in school.

I think one of the other reasons that my younger son and now my older one have had a mostly positive experience in school is that I have become more of an advocate for them. I make sure to keep good communication with the teachers/rebbe's and administrators and I also advocate on the part of the school to the boys. For example, when my 11 year old is frustrated that he has to do the same 100 problems of math homework that everyone else does - even though it's years below his level, I convinced the teacher to limit it to as much as he can do in 15 minutes. It's enough so that the teacher doesn't feel like he's getting away with not doing homework, yet it's tolerable for my son.

By the way, many times Asperger's kids have higher than average intelligence. This only adds to the difficulties they may face in school. B"H all my kids are very bright, ranging in IQ from 129 to 160, even the ones who aren't "quirky." So I've had to advocate for them as well.

Fox

Tue, Dec 30 2008, 10:48 am

mo5 wrote:

Also you mentioned that you did this in University. There is a difference. Age & Motivation. Younger children need more help staying on task, learning a new set of skills or concepts.

No, this was at a "university laboratory school" -- an elementary and/or high school operated by a major university to provide a laboratory and testing site for educational methodologies, student teaching, etc.

Imaonwheels wrote:

And I in working with hanhalot recommend strongly against "programmed learning" and consider it a failure.

Why? Wouldn't you/they agree that there are some basic skills that are developed through practice? Why is using programmed instruction or similar methodologies in any way inconsistent with true chinuch?

Imaonwheels wrote:

Much of the science of education has produced dismal results. The setting of school (as a opposed to a normative cheder setting) is a major obstacle.

Of course it has! So we should stop trying? What about the "science of education" -- a misnomer if ever there was one -- that has discovered that many of the very elements of a cheder setting that you espouse are indeed replicatible in a variety of settings? How can you condemn the field of education when it has come to the conclusion that the Jewish system you describe is, in essence, correct?

It's easy to condemn the field of education, or any other academic discipline: just read about a few goofy studies taken out of context, and you'll be able to guffaw in the teachers' lounge all day. But saying that educational research has produced "dismal results" is like saying that people who don't take their medications often don't get better and that medical research should henceforth cease, because a cure might possibly not work for everyone with an illness.

There is no reason we can't do better. I send my sons to a cheder that is consistently committed to "doing better"; unfortunately, I send my daughters to a school where the administration/teachers seem to feel they know it all and can't improve. It makes for lousy education and even worse chinuch.