Guests with different standards than hosts

amother

Tue, Jan 13 2009, 1:29 pm

I'm not sure that is a good title, but here it goes.

When a guest at someone's home who you did not know well, have you ever been surprised that your hosts standards we very different from your own? I am mostly thinking of kashrus-related concerns, but there could be other considerations, such as the use of media in the home.

The obvious solution to this potential issue is to never stay by or eat by someone that one does not know well, or that one is not 100% certain about their standards. There are times, however, when it is necessary or at least very helpful to be able to accept hospitality from someone that one barely knows.

Is it possible to politely question one's potential hosts before accepting an invitation about kashrus particulars? Is is okay to request certain types of foods (certain sheechta, for example)? If a third party is helping someone find hospitality, is it a faux pas to inquire into potential host's standards or to request a certain type of family?

Once one had already accepted an invitation from a person, how should one behave if one sees things with which one is uncomfortable? If you have been in such a situation, how did you deal with it sensitively without lowering your own standards?

...

I was going to write this under my screen name, but have posted as amother so that no one who may have had me as a guest will think I am talking about them!

Fox

Tue, Jan 13 2009, 1:45 pm

We don't eat out precisely because of this issue. Personally, I wish my DH were a little more lenient -- I feel like I have plenty of things to work on in my avodas Hashem before I start getting picky about hechshers. Then again, the people I'm friendly with are all a homogeneous enough group that the differences are pretty minor.

As a hostess, the biggest problem I have are guests who are "princesses" -- they have a million "food sensitivities"; they make faces at my diplapidated kitchen; they shiver in their lightweight outfits and wonder if I might have an extra sweater; they ask the ingredients of every single dish and offer their opinions about the importance of fresh ingredients . . .

Since most of the princesses are either single or newly married, I try not to take it personally. I figure I'll check back with them when they have five kids and a full-time job.

chocolate moose

Tue, Jan 13 2009, 1:52 pm

Fox wrote:

What about bringing some of your own food ?

Fox wrote:

As a hostess, the biggest problem I have are guests who are "princesses" -- they have a million "food sensitivities"; they make faces at my diplapidated kitchen; they shiver in their lightweight outfits and wonder if I might have an extra sweater; they ask the ingredients of every single dish and offer their opinions about the importance of fresh ingredients . . .Since most of the princesses are either single or newly married, I try not to take it personally. I figure I'll check back with them when they have five kids and a full-time job.

That's why I don't care to host girls.

shalhevet

Tue, Jan 13 2009, 1:57 pm

amother wrote:

If you have certain standards, you don't stay with someone you're not sure has them.

Quote:

Is it possible to politely question one's potential hosts before accepting an invitation about kashrus particulars?

I think that's fine if done politel.

Quote:

Is is okay to request certain types of foods (certain sheechta, for example)?

I think that's very rude. They're hosting you and going to the trouble and expense of having you. You don't want to eat the shechita they eat? Don't go or don't eat meat. It's bad enough asking your own family for a favour to accommodate you.

Quote:

If a third party is helping someone find hospitality, is it a faux pas to inquire into potential host's standards or to request a certain type of family?

I think that's also fine if done with sensitivity, presented as your hakpada/ minhag/ chumra whatever, and not as other people doing something wrong.

Quote:

Once one had already accepted an invitation from a person, how should one behave if one sees things with which one is uncomfortable? If you have been in such a situation, how did you deal with it sensitively without lowering your own standards?

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I don't quite know how you got there, but, for example, if you don't eat certain foods, just don't eat them. Just politely decline.

Fox

Tue, Jan 13 2009, 2:14 pm

chocolate moose wrote:

Fox wrote:

What about bringing some of your own food ?

Truthfully, we have found it easier to make a very strict blanket rule and then grant special exceptions. For example, we do eat occasionally at my husband's chavrusa's home.

We have a lot of guests, and often we don't know them particularly well. In some cases, it's BTs; in other cases, it's people new to the community; lately, we've gotten a lot of retirees. Often people want to reciprocate, but we don't feel we really know them well enough to feel comfortable with their practices and we don't want to seem to be asking for "references" for their good character and observance.

Plus, my DH hates to eat out . . . have you ever noticed how quickly chumras are put in place when they just happen to coincide with the DH's preferences?! LOL

amother

Tue, Jan 13 2009, 2:21 pm

OP here.

shalhevet wrote:

If you have certain standards, you don't stay with someone you're not sure has them.

Obviously that would be the optimal way. What do you do if you do need to stay by someone you don't know well?

For example, I have been in the situation where I had some kind of family issue and needed to stay in a certain city over a Shabbos. Also, when we were looking for a place to move, we accepted hospitality with families in a couple places were were thinking of moving. We belong to a certain community, so when we asked to be set up with a family from our community to get a feel for it, we assumed that we would have similar standards. We had no plans to be particular about any individual hiddurim we might have, but expected that major things would be similar since we both identify as part of the same community. For example, something like chalav yisroel. I thought everyone in our community keeps chalav yisroel, even those who are not particular about other things, yet we got set up with someone that does not keep CY. How does one deal with or avoid such a situation (assuming it is necessary to stay with someone unknown)? We just tried to avoid eating anything we wouldn't normally, without calling attention to it. Of course we were very thankful for the hospitality regardless. We wouldn't want to embarrass the hosts. I guess I could ask people if they, for example, keep chalav yisroel, but in my community, I would have thought that that kind of question would be insulting, since I assumed everyone does.

Atali

Tue, Jan 13 2009, 2:31 pm

shalhevet wrote:

chocolate moose wrote:

I ask the guests their hiddurim. It's been no problem to follow them.

But that's coming from the hostess - which is very thoughtful, but they shouldn't be asking you to accommodate them.

Asking for accomodations is one thing, but I think that it is okay (and proper) to warn hosts of your hiddurim in advance so they will not be offended if you don't eat certain items.

For example:

host: Would you like to come for shabbos lunch?
guest: Sure, but just to let you know we only eat shechita x but we do not expect you to make anything special for us. We are fine with just eating the pareve things.

amother

Tue, Jan 13 2009, 2:33 pm

My husband and I would not touch some of our (very good!) friends foods with a ten foot poll. We would never ever dream of asking someone their standards prior to accepting an invite b/c we don't want to give people the impression that we think we are better than them/their food, and also b/c it is not our place to judge... we keep certain things "above and beyond" the letter of the law, and just b/c we wouldn't eat a certain person's food does not mean that their food is not kosher al pi halacha.

If we are unsure whether or not to accept an invite we ask our Rabbi le'toeles if that person's food is acceptable for us. If we were making plans to visit a different community we would ask our Rabbi who is competent Rabbi in that area to reach out to when making Shabbos plans (I.e. who we could trust to help us arrange meals that are acceptable for us to eat).

I have friends whose food is fine and I would eat, but I would not necessarily eat everything made by them. For example I wouldn't necessarily eat "just anyone's" fresh lettuce or strawberries. But, now that I think about it, if I didn't trust someone to do an adequate check on these things I probably wouldn't trust how careful they are in other matters pertaining to the kashrus of food preparation and wouldn't eat their food at all.

As a hostess, I don't invite over people who would not eat my food for whatever reason (this really isn't a problem in my community unless it's an issue of preparing CY dairy for someone or checking yoshon, as we don't keep CY or yoshon). If I am having over someone that does not eat a particular food that I make (say, someone who will not eat home-checked strawberries or home-checked lettuce) I just don't serve that food when they are coming over. (For example, I have relatives who will not eat strawberries at all unless they are Bodek brand or peeled. So I wouldn't make a strawberry dish when they are over unless it can be prepared with Bodek brand.) Where I live everyone eats the same shechitas so that's not an issue. There is no way to get "special" shechita (say Satmar) w/o ordering it in. But if someone was visiting and only ate that shechita, I would either not make meat for that meal (not fair to them to see everyone else eating brisket while they are stuck with chicken or pareve), ask them to bring the meat with them from wherever they are coming and pay them for the meat and the trouble of bringing it, so that I could prepare them meat, or if I had enough notice order the meat and fly it in.

It is certainly not rude to ask questions and ask for help in these cases. One is not required to eat treif or sacrifice their standards for the sake of sholom as a guest or as a hostess). However, the matter should be handled discretely.

amother

Tue, Jan 13 2009, 2:39 pm

SarahO. wrote:

chocolate moose wrote:

SarahO. wrote:

I went to someone's house once who and noticed that they didn't check veggies. as I do and am particular about.. I just didn't eat the veggie w/o saying anything. I would prob. not go back but I totally love the hosts in any case.

Are you sure they didn't precheck them when you weren't looking, or use Bodek/Fresh Express ?

It was a green onion garnish. NO WAY u can check those w/o cutting them open...unless u are houdini lol

I'm the "green amother" from above.

In theory, once could slice the green onions into thin disks and then look inside each disk for bugs (as opposed to what most people do, which is slice the entire green onion along the side and then fold it open and look inside). Although I imagine that would be a major pain.

amother

Tue, Jan 13 2009, 2:45 pm

amother wrote:

[color=green]If we are unsure whether or not to accept an invite we ask our Rabbi le'toeles if that person's food is acceptable for us. If we were making plans to visit a different community we would ask our Rabbi who is competent Rabbi in that area to reach out to when making Shabbos plans (I.e. who we could trust to help us arrange meals that are acceptable for us to eat).

It's great that you have the connections to be able to find out this kind of information. Most people (including many rabbis) I ask about kashrus (not their own kashrus), such as the kashrus of a restaurant, will hem and haw and say something vague about people having different standards. I could only imagine how quiet most would become if I were asking about an individual's kashrus.

mandksima

Tue, Jan 13 2009, 2:46 pm

SarahO. wrote:

chocolate moose wrote:

SarahO. wrote:

Are you sure they didn't precheck them when you weren't looking, or use Bodek/Fresh Express ?

It was a green onion garnish. NO WAY u can check those w/o cutting them open...unless u are houdini lol

We get those bug-free greenhouse grown ones here but they usually have sand or dirt in them so I wash them off well. Is it possible that's what they had?