"Love and Logic" | Imamother

ceo

Thu, Jul 20 2006, 11:09 am

This thread is for parents to discuss techniques used in Love and Logic. Questions should to be sincere and not "I think this technique is garbage and dumb." Start your own thread for non-productive criticism!

For those interested in Love and Logic, check out the following books:

1) Love and Logic Magic For Early Childhood
2) Parenting with Love and Logic (geared towards ages 6 and up)

Also, check out the Love and Logic website: http://www.loveandlogic.com/

There, you can buy DVDs of their presentations and see if a speaker is coming to your city.

this thread was merged with the previous thread on this subject - mod

coolmama

Thu, Jul 20 2006, 8:52 pm

I have the first book and think it is amazing. I haven't read it for a while but I think u do need to keep reading and re-reading it. I like the section about giving chioces and it works wonders with my daughter. It's such a simple thing and so much fun to use as a parent. You almost never (or should never) get into battles with your child, when giving 2 choices that are equaly safe. If I remember correctly from the book, it says u could give choices basically all day! That's great.
Anyway, I advocate that book - it's a parent companion!

ceo

Fri, Jul 21 2006, 2:32 pm

Does it eliminate chutzapik-ness? No, but it sends the message that it's not going to get your kid anywhere in your house!

Also, people can't expect to see instant results from using one technique in the book.

Another idea of L & L that I love- this is similar to Parent Effectiveness Training- you don't own your kids' problems. If they can't find their shoes because they don't know how to clean up after themselves., then tough, they can't go out for ice cream with the rest of the family (this is an example I heard from a frum L & L leader). It's not YOUR problem to solve their issues.

Similarly, today my son didn't want to wear a bib. I said, "Kids who wear bibs can have oatmeal." If he doesn't want to wear a bib- fine, that';s his problem.

One thing I don't love about L and L is that it doesn't really discuss what's developmentally apropriate for children. For instance, in the early childhood book, there is one example of a mother who took her kid home from a restaurant while the other kids got tos stay and have fun. In the story, the kid had been misbehaving- I think that is unrealistic to expect a 3 year old to sit quietly in a restaurant.

amother

Brunette

Sun, Jul 23 2006, 6:57 am

amother wrote:

for all you love and logic fans what do u do when a 6 yr old is blatently chutzpadik to you ?

again-taking the idea of what "I" will do as opposed to what the kid should do - how about, "it is disrespectful to talk like that to a parent. I'll be happy to listen to respectful words"

Quote:

Another idea of L & L that I love- this is similar to Parent Effectiveness Training- you don't own your kids' problems.

I think this is generally a difficult concept for parents to come to terms with. Reason being that we (parents) WANT our kids to be happy and think if we just solve all their problems for them we can make them happy. Of course this is completely wrong, as you will find that often a child just wants to *vent* (just like us/adults) and when you try to solve their issues they will reject all and any suggestions you offer (no! I dont want to! *sulk*).

One suggestions for such a situation (after a child *vents* and a mom feels like saving the kid's world) would be to offer, "would you like a suggestion for that or do you really just need a big hug?"

On shabbos we were eating over at a neighbor/friend's house, and my (4 yr old) daughter came to me complaining, "sister and friend took both pocket books and there are none left for me!" and I said to her, "really? they took both of them? and there are none left in the big dress-up bucket?" She nodded, and wandered off to continue playing. I said out loud, "Hey, I didnt even solve her problem!" -- she just wanted to get some sympathy, and let out her feelings.

Quote:

If they can't find their shoes because they don't know how to clean up after themselves., then tough, they can't go out for ice cream

I've had my daughter come to me asking where are my shoes, and I'll say, "I dont know, what are you gonna do?" and she knows that I mean for her to find them by herself, so she says "Please can you help me find them?" (in her nicest voice!). At such times (as in with feeding her, getting dressed/undressed etc) I say, "I'm happy to help kids do things that they can't do for themselves. This way I can save my energy so that when you have trouble doing something yourself, I am able to help you!"
It's frustrating for them sometimes, but it gets the laziness and "mommy-do-everything-for-me" attitude out of them!

Sorry so long, I'm up early with my dh's alarm clock and can't fall back asleep *frustrated*...where else to turn? Imamother!

Last edited by amother on Tue, Oct 30 2018, 1:43 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Sun, Jul 23 2006, 10:23 am

Quote:

again-taking the idea of what "I" will do as opposed to what the kid should do - how about, "it is disrespectful to talk like that to a parent. I'll be happy to listen to respectful words"

ok now how do you follow thru with this method when the child says fine dont talk to me I dont care ect. I have heard my friends children talk this way because there is no standard of unacceptable behavior of the child. yes I will talk about what the kid should do isnt that our tafkid as parents to teach children what is acceptable to do or not?
The l and l methods are great when talking about geting dressed , starting behaviors but for disrespect to a parent or anyone for that matter we cant really on concentrating on what "I' as a parent will do.

didan

Sun, Jul 23 2006, 10:56 am

B"H

amother wrote:

Quote:

again-taking the idea of what "I" will do as opposed to what the kid should do - how about, "it is disrespectful to talk like that to a parent. I'll be happy to listen to respectful words"

I'll try and answer this. Firstly, part of the Love and Logic theory is having fun with your kids so that your kids enjoy being around you and are upset when they are not allowed (I.e. kvetching is okay in your room, feel free to join us when all the kvetches are out.) Unfortunately, many people don't know how to truly enjoy their kids and their kids don't mind a time-out and being alone in their room.

This being the case, when kids are Chutzpadik (and I B"H don't have much experience; possibly due to the way my husband and I deal with it, my kids are fairly respectful), using the response Goldrose suggested, or similar, is telling the child that you will not be responding to them when they use that type of language. This in turn is teaching them, through your actions, that being disrespectful is not okay. Lecturing children is rarely going to accomplish anything as far as educating them.

Kids who love being with their parents will hate being ignored by their parents and will very quickly learn not to speak that way.

Certainly there are things within the theories of Love & Logic that I disagree with. As a whole, most of it is pretty logical and practical and within the realms of Torah.

For those who want to see this from a Torah perspective, I'd recommend Balanced Parenting; A father and son - a Rabbi and psychologist - examine love and limits in raising children, by Rabbi Raphael Pelkovitz and Dr. David Pelkovitz - a father and son. This is similar to Love & Logic, although without the practical tips. It's a good book for studying the theory and understanding it, and Love & Logic is a great follow-up afterwards for practical application of it.

http://www.artscroll.com/Books/bpah.html

I've heard Dr. D. Pelkovitz speak as well, and he's really really good.

didan

Mon, Jul 24 2006, 11:21 am

B"H

I don't have teenage children if that's the age you mean. I'd suggest trying Parenting Teens with Love and Logic (https://www.loveandlogic.com/e.....cat=2)

You can also try Parenting with Love and Logic, (not the teen one.) I have that book and it's got some great ideas and suggestions.

As well, if you don't want to buy anything, on their website, there are a number of articles you can print and read. There are very interesting tips. On this page http://www.loveandlogic.com/parents.html scroll down to the bottom where it says articles.

Good luck!

didan

Mon, Jul 24 2006, 2:06 pm

B"H

It's not a X-tian book, though it may be written by x-tians. I don't know the religion of the authors.

About your son, I don't know his age, but what can work is when the timer buzzes, say something like, "Timer buzzed, bedtime. Do you want to skip to your room or walk backwards to your room?" (Or whatever method of transportation pops into your head at the moment.)

By immediately asking him a question, you're making him think. When he's busy thinking, he can't argue with you that he's not ready for bed yet, and chances are he'll end up in his room.

Again, I don't know how old your son is, this works really well with my children, but it won't work with a teenager. A child who is brought up this way, though, will probably continue to be able to relate to this type of communication.

gryp

Mon, Jul 24 2006, 2:16 pm

Quote:

Lets say I ask him Do you want to go to bed in 2 or 5 minutes? He says zero minutes. I set the timer for 5 minuets, but what happens when he doesnt listen.

I wouldnt advise asking that type of question Smile

of course he doesnt want to go to bed in any minutes!

instead, say something that gives him the message: You are going to bed, end of story. (as in didan's example)

dont forget YOU are the one in charge and he needs to go to bed.
once you get sidetracked from the underlying message, kids can easily take advantage and then become the one in charge, as in your example. he decided he's not going to bed, and you are left wondering what to do next.

didan

Mon, Jul 24 2006, 2:29 pm

B"H

I've read a number of the books and if anything Xtian was mentioned, I don't recall, so it certainly wasn't a focus.

This should work like magic on a 5 1/2 year old, although it will work only if you are very consistent.

It's important to remember that there is nothing wrong with a child getting angry. If my child gets upset that she's not ready for bed or anything else, my response is, "Oh, you sound pretty upset about that. Feel free to express yourself loudly in your room. Can you get there yourself, or do you need me to take you there?"

(This does not happen anymore, they know that bedtime is bedtime and always say things like "Tonight I'm going to crawl to my room.")

This is giving them the message that they are allowed to feel what they feel, but I don't have to get a headache from their yelling and I will not solve their problems...unless, of course, it's something they are too young to do themselves but when they are used to solving their own problems, they always want to try to do it, even if I know they can't.

An example is when my 3 year old would like to carry the basket of laundry upstairs. I don't tell her, "Oh, it's too heavy for you." Instead, I let her try. This way she'll figure it out on her own that she can't do it.

As well, after she says that it's too heavy for her, I'll usually say something like, "Wow, your muscles worked really hard trying to lift that!"

This tells her that:
a)she has muscles. She may not have been able to do it, but she will be able to do something else.
b)she should be proud of herself, and she usually is
c)she gets credit for trying something that was "hard."

I know I mixed a bunch of things into this message and kind of went off on a tangent, but in my experience it's all intertwined.

Feel free to PM me.

amother

Mon, Jul 24 2006, 9:49 pm

I have been trying the Love and Logic approach and mostly it seems to be working well and eliminating many frustrations for me...
But there are some scenarios (or should I say some children) that run into a dead end with every situation.

I need some help from you experts:
Scenario 1: 3 1/2 year old - likes to join in all discussions at dinner time and keep up with older siblings. Almost every single meal, every one finishes and leaves the table and then she wants to go join them - only her plate is almost still full. She is very independant and does not want to be helped (I would not mind feeding her a little to help her along). Its not that she is not hungry, its just that she is 'hungrier' to be part of the big kids.

I try to remind her of what the schedule is, and what she will be missing etc, but most often she lands up crying when everyone leaves. So she is not eating...and not joining everyone else. It becomes a big showdown...
Would you like to eat at the table with Mommy or by yourself (no answer) etc etc..