"Love and Logic" | Imamother

didan

Wed, Jul 26 2006, 8:50 am

B"H

Motek wrote:

didan wrote:

It's important to remember that there is nothing wrong with a child getting angry.

they are allowed to feel what they feel

Oh?

Is that a Torah value?

btw - I like your laundry example Smile

Anger is not something we want to encourage, but if a child gets angry, nothing I'm going to tell him is going to make him suddenly smile again.

I probably should be using the word upset instead of the word angry. That's really what I mean.

My children are learning that mommy is not going to solve all of their life's problems. Mommy will help them learn how to help themselves and solve their own problems. Of course, if there's something they cannot do alone, they know I'm there for them.

shayna82

Wed, Jul 26 2006, 9:22 am

Motek wrote:

shayna82 wrote:

who is talking about torah values?

Oh! You mean frum women are not interested in instilling Torah values in their children? shock

all she said was that kids are alowed to feel what they feel, and then you respond with your torah values. a two year old is alowed to feel angry or upset.

healthymama

Wed, Jul 26 2006, 5:01 pm

Quote:

Scenario 1: 3 1/2 year old - likes to join in all discussions at dinner time and keep up with older siblings. Almost every single meal, every one finishes and leaves the table and then she wants to go join them - only her plate is almost still full. She is very independant and does not want to be helped (I would not mind feeding her a little to help her along). Its not that she is not hungry, its just that she is 'hungrier' to be part of the big kids.

I try to remind her of what the schedule is, and what she will be missing etc, but most often she lands up crying when everyone leaves. So she is not eating...and not joining everyone else. It becomes a big showdown...
Would you like to eat at the table with Mommy or by yourself (no answer) etc etc..

I would not make her eat. But then she can't have any food until the next meal. "sorry honey, but lunch is over and you left the table. You can have some more food at supper."

Crayon210

Wed, Jul 26 2006, 6:45 pm

shayna82 wrote:

Motek wrote:

shayna82 wrote:

who is talking about torah values?

Oh! You mean frum women are not interested in instilling Torah values in their children? shock

all she said was that kids are alowed to feel what they feel, and then you respond with your torah values. a two year old is alowed to feel angry or upset.

Why are you so antagonistic to being mechanech one's children with Torah values? Confused

Motek

Thu, Jul 27 2006, 11:33 am

ceo wrote:

If they can't find their shoes because they don't know how to clean up after themselves., then tough, they can't go out for ice cream with the rest of the family (this is an example I heard from a frum L & L leader). It's not YOUR problem to solve their issues.

I'd like to know whether you treat yourself and the adults in your lives in the same way. If you misplace something or your husband misplaces something, do you say, "tough"?

Sounds mean to me.

I'm all for order and structure but we are human beings and sometimes things are misplaced. Tough? Confused

Coke Slurpee

Thu, Jul 27 2006, 1:01 pm

A torah value would be, not to get angry- and a person who gets angry would have to learn to control it. But when a kid gets angry or upset, its true we have to teach them how not to get angry and how to control the way they react when they are angry and upset, but a parent should always validate a kids feelings.

If a kid is angry because his brother broke his lego tower, a parent can say I know you worked really hard on your tower and when your brother broke it, it made you really angry, upset...etc. By putting words to feelings a parent can help their kid express their feelings verbally instead of physically. We try to teach our kids to say I'm angry, I'm upset as opposed to throwing a fit, wrecking or whatever else they would do.

And later on after the kid has calmed down you can tell them either with a story or play acting roles how to properly react in such a situation (it doesnt have to be the same scenario, just a similar idea) without getting angry, yelling or being destructive.

If a parent continually tells their kid not to get angry or that they shouldnt be upset when X happens, then the child will think that my feelings are not valid they are wrong or bad. By validating their emotions we are telling them that it is all right to feel angry or upset, but how we react to such emotions is what matters.

I hope I was clear enough, and not too redundant Very Happy

Motek

Thu, Jul 27 2006, 1:47 pm

Sonniboni wrote:

A torah value would be, not to get angry- and a person who gets angry would have to learn to control it.

Quote:

we are telling them that it is all right to feel angry or upset

sounds contradictory to me

if it's all right to feel angry, why would I need to control it?

shayna82

Thu, Jul 27 2006, 1:52 pm

Crayon210 wrote:

shayna82 wrote:

Motek wrote:

shayna82 wrote:

who is talking about torah values?

Oh! You mean frum women are not interested in instilling Torah values in their children? shock

all she said was that kids are alowed to feel what they feel, and then you respond with your torah values. a two year old is alowed to feel angry or upset.

Why are you so antagonistic to being mechanech one's children with Torah values? Confused

im not antagonistic at all. whoever it was was makig it sound like its so BAD that the kid is angry. I wasnt bashing the torah value part of it.

Motek

Thu, Jul 27 2006, 2:06 pm

shayna82 wrote:

whoever it was was makig it sound like its so BAD that the kid is angry. I wasnt bashing the torah value part of it.

the "whoever" was me, a few posts ago and what I wrote was a question:

"Is that a Torah value?"

Either it is or it isn't fine to be angry. I was responding to a poster who had written, "There is nothing wrong with a child getting angry."

Actually, anger is a terrible sin and is equated with idol worship.

Do we all sometimes get angry? Yes.

Is that fine?

No.

Are we supposed to be mechanech our children not to become angry?

Yes.

How to do that is another topic.

But this is not the first time I have seen frum women quote popular, secular wisdom about "validating anger" and writing how it's normal and human and therefore fine to be angry.

Normal and human, yes. Fine, not.

We think we are not influenced when we read seemingly neutral secular books about parenting, marriage, etc. We are wrong. Sad

Coke Slurpee

Thu, Jul 27 2006, 2:13 pm

Anger is a bad midda that needs to be worked on, but to expect a kid to automatically understand that (depend on the age) and never feel angry is a little much. To help a child work on it and give them tips and tools so that they could overcome it is a different story.

I think there is also a difference between validating a child's feelings, verbalizing what they feel and symphathizing with them and ignoring those feelings just because they aren not considered torah values. We are here to help our children grow in there avodas hashem (including middos), but not by making them feel that there feelings are bad because they don't shtim with what the torah says. Rather we need to teach them how to eliminate those bad middos in a positive method of chinuch.

I hope this is clearer.

Motek

Thu, Jul 27 2006, 2:15 pm

Yes, it is.

Just repeating - many frum parents and teachers and professionals espouse the mistaken view that to feel angry is fine, that it's a valid emotion to have. This is a secular idea that has insinuated itself into our homes, schools, and professional offices.

shayna82

Thu, Jul 27 2006, 2:17 pm

so the big questions, how do you effectivly and in the jewish spirit teach a 3 year old that anger is not okay. and how do you stop that anger from happening in the first place.

situation:

toddler- 14 months takes toys from 3 year old. 3 year old gets angry at toddler.

jewgal84

Thu, Jul 27 2006, 2:23 pm

I think didan was implying when she said the word angry, that her child gets upset.

I find it almost impossible to see a child not get upset when a toy was taken away from him by another child.

I also find it almost impossible for a teenager to feel a twinge of upsetness when she is "banned" from a priviledge.

We are not tzadikim and therefor we can't always control our innitiate feelings.

Wouldn't someone get upset when waiting for a certain parking space for a long time and all of a sudden this car speeds ahead of you and backs right in, when you have been obviosuly waiting for it.

The q' is now what to do with your upset mood. That is what we have to work on. Do we yell at the other driver, honk our horn, curse ourselves out for waiting to long or go over etc

* * * * *

For the person who asked weather or not L&L will work for teens, I've used it on parents of my students and you'd be surprised how good it works.

Coke Slurpee

Thu, Jul 27 2006, 3:10 pm

There are a few methods that you can use to teach your child how to react properly in diff. situations.

One way is role play. You play/act differents scenes with your child ie. 2 children wanting the same toy; and different ways each of you (acting as children) can react and discuss whcih ones are appropriate and which ones are not. Think up solutions together.

Another way is through stories - I tell my children stories about animals who live in animalworld- you can use these stories to teach middos, coping skills and just about anything. I find with my children that they absorb the message of the stories much more then if I would've rationalized it with them.