Moving to a bed | Imamother

micki

Thu, Dec 30 2004, 8:34 am

my kids get their own bed at 6 months. which is when they start sleeping thru the night. my older ones think its strange to sleep with me but if they are sick or scared then they know they can come! the door is always open and there are the rare night where we find a little one scared and we just pull them into bed. however, this is very rare and the kids never ask for it. personally like I said it also depends on the ages and how many you have because I cannot see myself getting ANY sleep if I had my newborn, 1,2, and just turned 4 yr old in my bed!!!
and I don't like the idea that I have to set up a screen or be restricted in any way from being with my husband. and if I have to go to another room well then that became my new bedroom and the kids now have mine. so thats a little twisted. I'd rather the have theirs and I have ours.
but to each their own. if it works for you and everyone is happy then great! for me it would not work.

gryp

Thu, Dec 30 2004, 8:47 am

As far as "crying it out" which is also a different topic, I think it depends on the child, but I will never believe that it has long-lasting emotional disturbances. if that were true all of the people I know from ages 100-1 would be emotionally disturbed.

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Family bed babies cry less than babies who sleep alone-a boon to both babies and parents.

Cry? when? where? why? on the street? at home? when theyre hungry? when theyre tired? is there any explanation in your book?

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Family bed children end up more independent and better adjusted later in life than those who slept without parental contact.

when is later? as adults? or as children attending school? actually I would think that children who have faced their nighttime fears would be more mature, more independent, and more well- adjusted, then a child who has to run to his parents because hes scared of the dark.

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Norma Jane Bumgarner

after reading the paragraph you posted there, all I can say is that she is the one with emotional disturbances. I dont believe for a second that her memories are of when she was 1 and 2 years old. for a 3 year old and up, there are many other things to do for a scared child than to stick them in their parents beds. Nighttime is not a scary time for people, and it is not a scary time for 1 and 2 year olds either. if a child of that age says he is scared (if he is able to talk) then it is because the parent put that idea there. and if the parent is scared of the dark or says the dark is scary, then definitely the child will be scared. I can go on and on about her paragraph and I can rip apart each word and show how she makes no sense, but im sure other people can do that as well.

as far as "youll never get your kid out of your bed," of course one day you will, but it will be much harder. this is an example of a situatioon of creating a problem when there doesnt have to be one in the first place.

I dont mean this as a personal attack, but you say your daughter in independent, but she is in your bed... it doesnt make much sense to me. you said she did leave but came back, and that is exactly what happens in these situations. Fears of monsters are very normal for 3-4 year olds but there are other ways of dealing with it than inviting her back to your bed.

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how nice it is when children wake up in the morning smiling rather than crying for Mommy

I wonder how many of other posters' children, cry for Mommy as soon as they wake up. Mendel sits quietly or plays or rests until we wake up and go get him. then he starts smiling and laughing and "tells" us about his night in his funny gibberish talk.

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Moreover, even though all babies wake up every 1 to 2 hours, when they are next to Mommy, unless they are hungry, they just fall right back asleep.

I have heard many many stories from friends about how the babies in their beds wanted to nurse even though they werent hungry, but they knew their mother was there, and wanted to nurse anyway. thats when they started putting the baby in their own bed/crib.

as far as having relations, most people I would think dont have extra mattresses on the floor, or a screen in their room. and I think we know a little too much in regards to the twin bed in the other room....

ForeverYoung
Guest

Thu, Dec 30 2004, 11:05 am

Quote:

Straight from the Heart by Tehilla Abramov

I actually do not like this book.
I red it when preg. with my 2nd, and it depressed me, it made me feel inferior, wrong and a bad mother, b/c I couldn't nurse so well. I had to suppliment & the book made me feel like a falure.
SHe does not address the difficutlies n nurcing, according to her it 'just happends'. Most of 1st time mothers I know weren't able to nurse thie 1st child for many different reasons, and that book is a total depresser in such cases

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the dangers of the "crying it out" approach to getting children to sleep

I agree & disagree here.

I think it should be the last method to try, but it still has it's place.
When our son was 13 m old, we still had give him bottle when he was going to sleep & got up 2 times a night for him, to give him bottle.
So one evening somebody told us: let him cry it out.
Guess what! he didn't even bother crying too much. 30 seconds maby. Or a minute. AND THAN HE JUST SLEPT THROUGH THE NIGHT!!!! just like that.

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Have you ever seen a high school student sleeping with her mother?

I've never seen it in my life, but I red an article discussing the problem of bar mitzva age boys sleeping w/ their mothers... Rolling Eyes

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how nice it is when children wake up in the morning smiling rather than crying for Mommy

my kids just come over and climb in Wink

Babies do well in my bed, but at some point I have to transfer them, b/ I can't sleep well whe a tiny person takes up most of my bed Wink

yehudis

Thu, Dec 30 2004, 11:59 am

RG, I am sorry, but I am getting sick and tired of your accusations and personal attacks. You are not presenting a rational argument; you simply attack everything I say. You know, if you disagree, it is usually _not_ enough to just say, "Oh, this is nonsense." You have to provide reasonable arguments. Otherwise, this is just a fight, which is very annoying and a waste of my time.

You asked what derogatory statement you made. Here it is:

RG wrote:

almost 100% of the time, the mother is the one who wants a "family bed" for a sense of security

Don't you think that this statement implies that mothers who want family bed are selfish and overly anxious individuals who are not concerned about what is best for their children?

Also, you didn't specify what age you were talking about. I assumed you meant from day 1. Only later you said you didn't mean nursing babies. But when do they stop being babies? Some children nurse till 3, or longer.

Here are more personal attacks and statements of the form "this is nonsense":

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after reading the paragraph you posted there, all I can say is that she is the one with emotional disturbances. I dont believe for a second that her memories are of when she was 1 and 2 years old.

BTW, lots of people, especially if they are sensitive, remember themselves from age 1.5. Especially the terrifying experiences they have.

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if a child of that age says he is scared (if he is able to talk) then it is because the parent put that idea there. and if the parent is scared of the dark or says the dark is scary, then definitely the child will be scared.

And nothing to support this outrageous statement! Do you have a 3-year-old? I was under impression that your son is much younger. Do you know that most if not all 3-year-olds have fears of the dark? And no, I certainly didn't put it there!

As far as dealing with the fear, of course, there are other ways. But why waste your time on something that your child will grow out of anyway? I once heard on a chinuch tape that parents often spend a lot of time on problems that will be outgrown instead of focusing on the real issues.

And a word of caution: _never_ force a terrified child to stay alone in the room. That will only intensify the fear.

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you say your daughter in independent, but she is in your bed...

Anybody reading this who has seen my daughter? You should ask my friends -- she is much more independent than other children her age. I've never had a problem leaving her with a baby-sitter. When we go to the park, she runs to all the slides, climbs high, and doesn't ask for help. She often plays on her own, while my friends say that their children follow them around the house. Etc. And I feel that the reason that she is comfortable being independent is because we never pushed independence on her and allowed her to develop it at her own pace.

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most people I would think dont have extra mattresses on the floor, or a screen in their room. and I think we know a little too much in regards to the twin bed in the other room....

It's a matter of priorities. And you asked... embarrassed

Anyways, I don't think I'll be replying to your posts anymore until you are willing to have a reasonable conversation. This is just too frustrating![/quote]

yehudis

Thu, Dec 30 2004, 12:28 pm

ForeverYoung wrote:

Quote:

Straight from the Heart by Tehilla Abramov

I'm sorry you felt this way Sad

. Of course, you're not a failure -- you did as much as you could. I think she was mostly criticizing the people who don't _want_ to nurse, for whatever reason.

For me, this book was a life-saver. When I was expecting my 2nd and my 1st was still very much into nursing, it was this book that helped come to terms with the idea that I might be tandem nursing and that there is nothing wrong with it. And after I had my 2nd, I was going crazy with all the nursing, and I don't know how I would have made it through without this book, which I kept rereading, because it confirmed that I was doing the right thing, what the Torah wants me to do.

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So one evening somebody told us: let him cry it out.
Guess what! he didn't even bother crying too much. 30 seconds maby. Or a minute. AND THAN HE JUST SLEPT THROUGH THE NIGHT!!!! just like that

I don't think this is what Rabbi Keleman is talking about. This is not traumatic. He talks about letting babies cry for hours and consistently ignoring their cries.

ForeverYoung
Guest

Thu, Dec 30 2004, 12:50 pm

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if a child of that age says he is scared (if he is able to talk) then it is because the parent put that idea there.

Actually, my son is petryfied of animals, and both my husband & I have no problem w/ them and our daugther's scared of things she can't even name. Confused

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He talks about letting babies cry for hours and consistently ignoring their cries

I think there are very few mothers who actually do this.
(Or hope so)

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Straight from the Heart by Tehilla Abramov

actually, this book says that one is allowed to say brahos while nurcing w/ references that do not support the statement. (We checked the references)
I assume that this is a typo. Hoever, it also means that before pasening halacha from this (or any other english sefer) one has to either check references or consult their rav

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almost 100% of the time, the mother is the one who wants a "family bed"

it's an intersting statement.
I agree that family bed only has place when parents allow it.
(I'm not talking about babies here)
And I do not agree that it's the ideal, However, I wouldn't ban kids all together. Occasional camping sounds like fun, but constant - no way.
Once in a while our kids get into my husband's bed after he's gone for shacharis; they also occasionally visit us in the mornings.

But not constant camping, no, no way.

gryp

Thu, Dec 30 2004, 1:35 pm

Quote:

You asked what derogatory statement you made. Here it is: RG wrote:
almost 100% of the time, the mother is the one who wants a "family bed" for a sense of security
Don't you think that this statement implies that mothers who want family bed are selfish and overly anxious individuals who are not concerned about what is best for their children?

I did not mean to imply that all. I see from others and from my own experience that mothers can just do something without even realizing what theyre doing. therefore I thought it would be beneficial to say that the sense of security is for the mother, not for the child. with the right attitude and parenting skills, a child could be secure in his own bed, no problem.

nowhere did I say they are being selfish, and nowhere did I say they are not concerned for what is best for their children. my posts have no meforshim to them, when people start their own meforshim on them is when we have trouble.

about overly anxious, any mother can be overly anxious, which is why you see kids who are overdressed, or are not allowed out of their mothers eyesight for a minute, ..... but its better to be this kind of parent than to have underdressed, unwatched kids.
but still, if we try to micromanage our kids lives, we will end up only hurting instead of giving them a chance to grow.

I didnt specify which age I was talking about because it wasnt part of the discussion then, when it became relevant, I did. I didnt mention about nursing toddlers because I assumed they would be sleeping through the night, and would not have to nighttime nurse, and therefore belong in their own bed, and not in the parents. please dont tell me people nurse their toddlers in the night as well......

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Here are more personal attacks and statements of the form "this is nonsense":

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after reading the paragraph you posted there, all I can say is that she is the one with emotional disturbances. I dont believe for a second that her memories are of when she was 1 and 2 years old.

why is that a personal attack? do you know the lady who wrote the book? are you related to her? I commented on what she wrote, and most people do not have horrific nighttime thoughts like that. she says it was her own twisted imagination, and I agree. but nobody else has such a twisted imagination.

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BTW, lots of people, especially if they are sensitive, remember themselves from age 1.5. Especially the terrifying experiences they have.

maybe some do but if we took a poll ill bet most people do not remember things from when they were 1 or 2 years old.
being in the dark is not a terrifying experience. obviously since she was so young, she has no idea why she was so scared, there could have been dozens of other factors in her life that night that made her scared, and since she was so young, she would have no rememberance of it, only of the scary part.

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im sorry, I thought I wrote this clearly enough. I am talking specifically about the dark, not about animals, scary people, or something the kid watched on TV/video. have you ever heard a 1 year old say hes scared of the dark without being prompted? and without any "influence" about it from other children?

when it comes to 3 year olds there are other things to do to train them to face their fears. I was talking about a 1-2 year old like that woman in the paragraph you posted said she was. a 3 year old already has much more understanding of the outside world than a 2 year old and it is very different.

please dont tell me I dont have a 3 year old so I dont know. I have more than enough experience in dealing with kids to last me a lifetime.

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But why waste your time on something that your child will grow out of anyway?

dont be so sure your child will outgrow it if they are not trained in how to face their fears. maybe eventually but it will always linger in some fashion, and learning how to face these fears will teach skills I learning how to face other fears in the years to come.

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And a word of caution: _never_ force a terrified child to stay alone in the room. That will only intensify the fear.

I think only a control-maniac would do that. normal people of course would never do that.

as far as your daughter goes, I did not mean it as a personal attack, just a discussion. im sorry you took it that way. I am sure she is independent in other areas.[/quote]

zuncompany

Thu, Dec 30 2004, 1:39 pm

I wish my parents had sucked up their own issues with crying it out and had let me! I still have trouble putting myself to sleep. It takes me hours of laying there trying to relax. We did sleep train Zu and it was the best thing we ever did. He cried only a few mins the first night, not even a full min the second night and about 5 second the third. By the fourth night no crying, he happily went into his bed. When he got a little older he would play a bit first and go right down. When he wakes up in the middle of the night, he might take a drink from his sippy, I hear him hit his crib soother toy and he goes right back down.

I did teach three years before I got married. Yes, many are scared of the dark, but there are loads of ways to deal with this. I remember it so well what my parents did. We had a spray bottle and each night would spray my room with the special no bad guys spray. My parents left it on my side table and if I woke up in the middle of the night scared I just sprayed a bit and all was good. No need to go to my parents bed or room.

I kept both Zu and Tev (now) in bed with me for a little bit. Once my husband starts to kvetch... the kid is out. It can create major shalom bayis issues. I asked my hubby again about how he felt on it. He said... sometimes its okay... but sometimes there is no place for them in your bed. Mommy and Tatty deserve time together and should not have to leave their room to do this. I guess if your hubby doesn't mind... its your choice how to run your own family.

Every child is different. I found when I got the kid further from me in the night time, not only did they eat less, but they woke less and slept longer. Zu was still waking up every 1-2 hours at night to nurse at 7 months not because he was hungry, but because he could smell my milk. My ped who is very into the family bed, aping, etc... told me to get him out of our room, and out of our bed.

I don't think I harmed Zu at all by letting him CIO or move him out of my room. He loves his crib. He asks sometimes to go in there just to play. He is right now. I went into his room cause I heard him up, invited him to come out, and he got mad at me! LOL! He wakes up in the mornings now happy and now exhausted and sleep deprived like he was in my bed.

Oh! I have a question Yehudis... this is not an attack! You know I am all for "extended" nursing and even tandem nursing. However what does Torah say about nursing beyond age two? Beyond three? I learned until two.

sara

micki

Thu, Dec 30 2004, 2:45 pm

Quote:

maybe eventually but it will always linger in some fashion, and learning how to face these fears will teach skills I learning how to face other fears in the years to come.

rg you hit on something here- if a child does not learn how to manage his own fears/problems then he will be stuck. the message that if you have a problem get mommy to figure it out is not very productive to the child. because what about in school? or when you are not so readily available?
if a kid is afraid of the dark then teaching him how to cop is better than teaching him just run to mommy.
like today my kid came home and told me another boy hit her in school today. I asked what did she do? and she said , "I told him that we are not allowed to hit and I don't like it" and that was that. bewcasue at home if one kid hits the other I say, tell them that you don't like it, not me. so now I gave my kid a tool to help them when I am not around.

I know a kid who they are almost 8 ys. old and still would prefer to run to mommy in the night. refuses to go to bed by themselves, and needs mommy to stay with in their bed. when she is upset she runs to mommies bed. she slept in her mothers bed PERMANENETLY every night until she was 6. if she is cold she runs to mommy. (the covers fell off) if my kid is cold, they cover themselves up.
I am a firm believer in teaching kids to fend for themselves and give them tools to help that.

and my kids have never slept with me past 6-12 months and they are too independant. they do everything yehudis said her kid does and then some. so sleeping with mommy does not guarantee an independant child just as not sleeping says the kid is not independant.

yehudis

Thu, Dec 30 2004, 5:08 pm

ForeverYoung wrote:

Quote:

He talks about letting babies cry for hours and consistently ignoring their cries

I think there are very few mothers who actually do this.
(Or hope so)

Unfortunately, there are enough for Rabbi Keleman to be concerned and write a whole chapter about it Sad

.

I've heard pretty bad stories, about nighttime parenting turning it "I'm tougher and I'm going to win" type of battle. And I heard advice of the kind, "Oh, just let her cry for a few hours the first night, and next time it shouldn't be longer than 2 hours, and in a week or so she won't cry at all." I could never do that to my child!

It does depend on the child though. I'm reading your stories here, about your children not crying for more than 5 minutes, and thinking that my daughter is so different. She has a very intense personality. She is the kind of child that would cry for hours. When she was 4 months, we went to Philadelphia, and we were driving somewhere, and she got hungry. We didn't know the city, and it didn't seem like a safe place to stop, and it took us about half an hour to finally find a place to stop. She was screaming all this time! My younger daughter is very different -- we were once in a similar situation when she was a baby, and I was trying to find a place to park, and she fell asleep without eating within 10 minutes, before I even parked.

So you have to know your child and make your decisions based on that.

Pickle Lady

Thu, Dec 30 2004, 5:24 pm

I agree with all of you ladies. For me I co-sleep with my babies when the are nursing. My first I moved out at around 9-10 months old and I plan of doing the same thing with my currently baby. I definetly notice that my older son sleeps better when hes with me but I need my space. Hopefully over time he will get better at sleeping alone. He has his own crib but he hasn't moved out of our room. I could not do the cry out method with my son. He has refluz or maybe food allergies (we are still finding out) and when he cries for too long he starts to throw up. So I had to learn how to put him to sleep with out letting him cry it out. So the method that works for me is that he sits in his crib and I stay in the room till he falls asleep. als what I have heard about putting kids to bed is that a routine can help set the mood that they are going to sleep. So every night hes gets his face and hands washed and into his pajamas. We say shema and 12 psukim in his crib and then the lights go out and he knows to lay down because its time to go to sleep. This is what works for my older son. Sometimes he does sleep with my husband when hes sick (he sometimes vomits in his sleep).

When will I move my older son to his own bed. Hmm I haven't really thought too much about it. I kind of like him in the crib because I don't want him wandering the house at night. I also like the fact that hes contained. Maybe around 3.

Co-sleeping with my babies is the only reason I am not a zombie when im nursing.

micki

Thu, Dec 30 2004, 5:57 pm

you know on crying it out topic, with my 4 K"H they never cried more than 3 nights. and it was 15 min. at the MOST. with my third he was waking up every 2 hours he was 13 months old. - I was exhausted because I was also 9 months preg. he needed a bottle made every 2 hours. it was habit. I could not let him cry cause he would wake up the others. they were all in one room. well 6 days before the baby was born we moved into a bigger house and I put him in his own room and my brother 18 yr old was also with us to help out and he was in the same room. he says he cried for a few min. every 2 hours but he wasn't going to get up. I did not even hear him- and you know what? from then on he's slept thru the night since then. all he needed was us to break the habit.

knowing your child is important cause I have recently been working 3 evenings a week and hubby is home and when the baby an hour after he is in bed calls to get out he took him out. he needed a video and then an hour later would go back to bed. well on the days I did not work I refused to take him out and he literally cried for 2 hours. he is already 2 so I let him. he never fell asleep and was still crying. with this kid I had to go in hug and cuddle- and he fell asleep 1 second later. he needs explanations and reasoning as he is too stubborn to fall asleep. 3 night of this and now he does not ask to get out anymore. my other son needs to cry. so each kid is different.

oh and my daughter had the same throw up buisness. she could only fall asleep if I stayed with her- I remember crawling out on all 4's so she would not see me go out. if she cried too much she'd throw up. so someone suggested a routine and that worked amazingly. she knew that at the end she has to go to bed. I still had to stay in the room though. but she did not throw up. when my second was 8 months old she was crying and crying. didn't want to be nursed, thrashed around until my arms hurt from holding her. nothing helped. I tried rocking, walking- everything. so finally I said- fine if you want to cry, then cry to sleep. I put her in the crib and walked out. a second later she fell asleep. all she wanted was to be put down. and she taught me that kids need to go to sleep on their own. without parents help.

gryp

Thu, Dec 30 2004, 6:27 pm

Quote:

I've heard pretty bad stories, about nighttime parenting turning it "I'm tougher and I'm going to win" type of battle. And I heard advice of the kind, "Oh, just let her cry for a few hours the first night, and next time it shouldn't be longer than 2 hours, and in a week or so she won't cry at all." I could never do that to my child!

there is a misconception here, then. this is not the crying it out method! the crying it out is no longer than 20 minutes! it guarantees that the baby will stop crying before then. one time I waited 5 extra minutes and I barely made it through. but after that it was within 10 minutes. no where does it say to let your child scream for hours and hours! and they say give it 7 nights, but it usually happens faster.

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Of course, we're different

Yehudis, by this I meant that since we are so different, it is easy to misunderstand each other, and that is why it may seem like a personal attack when its really not. this is why I tried extra hard not to be misunderstood.

gryp

Thu, Dec 30 2004, 8:37 pm

heres a quote from John Rosemond on this topic. please dont take every word he says to heart, this is just the way he likes to talk....

Q: My 2-year-old grandson has slept with his parents since he was born, but with the birth of a third child (he has a 4-year-old sister), he was moved to a bed of his own in an adjoining room. Since he refuses to cooperate in the new sleeping arrangements, either my son or daughter-in-law rocks him to sleep, which might take an hour or more. Then, without fail, he wakes up in the middle of the night and goes to his parents' bed where the new baby is sleeping. The parents try to make him go back to his bed, but oftentimes, the father goes to the other room to sleep. At other times, the 2-year-old wakes up his older sister and together they wake up the entire house with their shenanigans. What can a grandma do to help in a situation like this?

A: Let this be a lesson to all who are reading this that while the "family bed" may seem warm and fuzzy, it often devolves into chaos of this sort. If this 2-year-old had been trained to sleep in his own bed since birth, this would not be happening. Assuming no other behavior problems had developed, he'd be a well-adjusted child who was perfectly content with a room and a bed of his own.

Despite the claims of "family bed" advocates, not one study done by an objective researcher has demonstrated benefit in either the short- or long-term to the children so bedded. The American Academy of Pediatrics recommends against the practice, noting that infants are sometimes smothered by parents who inadvertently roll over on them in the night or as a result of getting tangled in king size sheets and blankets.

Rarely do I meet a father who has chosen to initiate this unnecessary practice. It's nearly always the mother's call, and the mother in question is almost invariably one who has bought into the propaganda that bedding with her child promotes mother-child bonding. If the other moms in her social group are bedding with their kids, she feels the additional pressure of not wanting to be the most "un-bonded" mom in the neighborhood.

There are no two ways about it, a child who sleeps with his parents develops a dependency upon sleeping with his parents, one that comes back to haunt all concerned when the parents decide the child's presence in the bed has become inconvenient.

Meanwhile, this child has been deprived of the inestimable benefit of learning that he was not a member of the wedding, that the marriage is not a threesome.

During my private practice years, I saw a lot of these kids. They were, as a rule, not happy campers. The parents in the above question are obviously slow learners as they're making the same mistake with the newborn.

What can Grandma do to help? She can say, "When you would like some old-fashioned advice from an old-fashioned older woman who is obviously out of step with the times, don't hesitate to ask." While she's waiting for her son and daughter-in-law to come to their senses, she might consider cutting this column out of her local paper and mailing it to her them in a plain brown envelope, sans return address.

gryp

Thu, Dec 30 2004, 8:44 pm

and heres another quote about fears:

Many if not most of today's parents (and especially, I dare to say, the mothers) are convinced that nearly every child rearing circumstance is fraught with apocalyptic psychological ramifications.

As a consequence, they tend to agonize over things that parents of 50-plus years ago would have reacted to calmly, even dismissed.

The modern parent's proclivity for "psychological thinking" also paralyzes her ability to effectively discipline, the secret to which is to simply act as if you are always in complete control of everything. Needless to say, worry concerning the psychological meaning of every behavior and the psychological consequences to the child of every disciplinary action is hardly conducive to acting like you are in control.

How to stop worrying? Act like you are in control. That may sound contradictory, but it is not. Shakespeare said the world's a stage upon which each of us plays many parts, many roles. Parenting is one of the roles in question.

The way to stop worrying is to master the "act" of discipline.

Every so often, a parent shares with me a story that confirms this simple principle.

Here's one such story, in a mother's own words:

"About 6 months ago, my 5-year-old-suddenly, for no apparent reason-became afraid of the dark and of being by himself in any area of the home.

"I'd ask him to take a towel to the laundry room and he'd become instantly panic-stricken. He'd beg me or his younger brother to accompany him, to which his brother would readily agree. I must admit I would also agree, but not so readily.

"During the day, he would walk behind me through the house, telling me he was afraid for me to leave him by himself. At bedtime, he insisted upon a night light. That sufficed for a few days, after which he began insisting that the hall light be on. Soon, he would not stay in bed unless the whole house was ablaze with light.

"If I accidentally turned out the light in, say, the family room, he would scream, 'Mommy! Mommy! Turn the light back on!'

"Things were getting ridiculous. Most ridiculous of all, I was trying to figure out what had caused his 'separation anxiety' or 'abandonment complex' or whatever I was calling it that day. In other words, I was doing nothing but stewing and worrying.

"I finally realized, he didn't have a psychological problem, he had a thinking problem, and just like it was up to me to help him control inappropriate behavior, so it was up to me to help him control inappropriate thinking.

"So I sat down with him and said, 'My dear little boy. Here are two red tickets (rectangles of construction paper). This means you may act like you are afraid of the dark or being alone only two times a day. Every time you tell me you're scared, you will have to give me a ticket.

When you have no more tickets, you have no more permission to be scared. If you tell me you're scared and you can't give me a ticket, because you've already lost them, you sit in a comfortable chair in the den for the rest of the day.

It is your job to figure out a way to stop being scared.

"When I was 5-years-old I was scared of the dark too. I figured out a secret way of not being scared, and I expect you to do the same. Also, at night, when you go to bed, you may have one nightlight on in your room and one nightlight in the hall. That's it. No more. It is a waste of energy for me to keep all the lights on, and we are not wasteful in our family. Got it?'

"I wasn't mad or even upset, but it was clear to him that I'd had enough. I was stern. The result? I never had to take a single ticket away. He stopped being afraid immediately. Unbelievable."

Not really. The simple fact is, a child cannot have faith in a parent-the foundation of a child's sense of security-unless the parent has faith in herself.

This is not so much a story of a child who stopped being afraid as it is a story of a mom who lost her faith in herself and found it again. Hallelujah!

yehudis

Thu, Dec 30 2004, 9:23 pm

I'm not keeping up here, so I guess I'll just reply to the points being discussed without quoting anyone in particular.

First of all, about fears -- I absolutely agree that there are fears that children need help overcoming. But I also think that there are fears that go away by themselves as children get older. For example, my daughter was afraid of the vacuum cleaner when she was younger, and she simply grew out of that fear. I feel that fear of the dark is the same kind of fear and doesn't need any attention from the parents.

OTOH, I agree (yey! Smile

) that the case that RG quoted with the child being afraid to walk around the house by himself is abnormal (most children don't have this fear) and need parental involvement. (Although if I were the mother, I would try to help the child come up with a solution rather than present an ultimatum. I actually had a very similar situation with my daughter -- all of a sudden, she was afraid to cross the street even when holding my hand. So I sat down with her and we talked about it, and it turned out -- but it did take me some time to get it out of her -- that she got scared because I once said to her that it is harder for drivers to see children than adults because they are not as tall. Amazing what conculsions children can come up with when we say something without thinking Smile

. So I explained to her that I didn't mean that they wouldn't see her, especially when she is right next to me. And that did it -- she's been crossing the street just fine since then. It just takes a little thinking and empathy.)

With the fear of the dark, I can see that my daughter is less and less afraid of it as she gets older. Besides, even when she goes to sleep in our bedroom, she knows full well that my husband and I won't go to bed for a few more hours. And it's completely dark -- no nightlights or anything. So it too shall pass Smile

.

The truth is, I think if we really insisted on it and maybe promised her a gift or something, we could get her to sleep in her own bed. But I'd rather wait until she makes this decision on her own. I guess if she's not out of our bedroom by the time she turns 4, we might have to resort to bribery Smile

gryp

Thu, Dec 30 2004, 9:42 pm

heres one more I found, and the last one ill post (b"n), so dont worry:

Q: Having read your books, we know you advise against letting children sleep with parents. Do you feel the same way about letting young children crawl into their parents’ bed in the morning? Also, should the parents’ bedroom be generally “off limits” to children?

A: I am, indeed, generally disapproving of parents and children sleeping together. It’s important for children to understand that their parents’ marriage is exclusive - that it does not include them. This distinction positions the marriage at center stage in the family, at the focal point of attention.

Coming to grips with the fact that the husband/wife relationship is the primary relationship in the family helps the young child divest of self-centeredness, acquire a sense of independence, and move securely toward eventual emancipation. Being allowed to sleep with parents prevents a child from seeing, and developing respect for, this distinction. On the surface, the togetherness of sleeping together seems very idyllic and nurturing. This leads easily to the mistaken belief that it contributes positively to a child’s sense of security and self-esteem when quite the opposite is actually the case.

A child cannot achieve complete autonomy unless parents first establish the autonomy (separateness) of their marriage. Autonomy is virtually synonymous with self-esteem. Therefore, what looks like a very nurturing arrangement actually extends dependency and interferes significantly with emotional growth. Ah, but all rules have their exceptions, and this one, too, can be suspended under special circumstances. These include when the child is ill, or is recovering from an experience that has temporarily upset his/her security (death of a pet, for instance) or for a night or two after the family has moved to a new home, thus giving the child time to adjust to the new surroundings.

No problem, either, with letting a child crawl into bed with parents’ in the morning for some “cuddle time.” I see absolutely no parallel between this and letting children share the marital bed on a nightly basis. The one is playfully innocent, the other indulgent and insidious. When they were younger, both of our kids occasionally got into bed with us in the mornings. Amy continued doing so until 12 or 13, when, as is typical of teens, she suddenly decided she wanted nothing to do with us at all.

On your question concerning the sanctity of the parents’ bedroom, this is an individual decision. My personal feeling is that the parents’ room should, in general, be “off limits” to children. When our children were young, they had to have permission to enter our room. But then, we extended the same rule of courtesy to them concerning their rooms. As they got older, the rule relaxed to become: If our door is closed, you may not go in unless you ask permission, but if the door is open, our room is yours.

As a postscript, quite a number of readers have written complaining of having been told by various booksellers that my book - John Rosemond’s Six-Point Plan for Raising Happy, Healthy Children - (Andrews and McMeel, 1989), is out of print. Not true. It is, in fact, alive and well and in its sixth printing. Unfortunately, some stores have it listed under “J” for John which makes it difficult to locate. My first book, Parent Power! is out of print, but will be reprinted by Andrews and McMeel in 1991.