Not frum family - shabbos meals etiquette (long)

zaq

Fri, May 01 2009, 11:35 am

amother wrote:

but do you think it was normal for a wife to save food for the husband who came late?? It wasn;t like a piece of cake or something - but a plate FULL of fish, salads and dips.

Very normal. He came late, he missed part of the fun, she's looking out for his interests. It's what a loving wife does.

I sympathize with everything you said and think you must be an amazing baalat chessed. I'm not going to try to guess their ethnic background , but there are certain ethnic groups that don't ever contribute, bring thank-you gifts or anything. They tend to either come from countries with repressive governments and bad economies, so the mindset is "take whatever you can and as much of it as you can whenever you can," or from socialist-communist countries where all property in theory belonged to the collective, so it's really their own stuff they're taking. People can have this way of thinking even if they were born here but they absorbed this way of thinking from their parents. Or they think all Americans are rich and can afford all this, so why shouldn't they take advantage. If you couldn't afford all this you wouldn't be putting it out on the table.

Also there are some people who have no physical sense of being full and will just continue eating as long as ther's food in front of them. It's hard to imagine a whole family with this problem, but you never know.

Just explaining different mindsets here.

The idea of serving food restaurant-style rather than family-style is a good one. In fact, it's considered more elegant, though few people do it because it's so time-consuming. In this case, it seems like a sensible thing to do. Much nicer than simply dropping them, especially as that might derail their religious progress.

Don't look to me for chizzuk, I don't blame you for being resentful. In this country the polite thing is to bring a gift of some sort when you come for a meal.

OTOH they seem to be considerate in other ways, so maybe it's a cultural thing. Maybe in their background bringing a gift would be an insult, as if implying that they need "help" providing a meal, and the personal interest and birthday greetings are the acceptable "payback".

I think I remember a thread in which more than one person said they found it insulting and inconsiderate(!) when meal guests brought gifts of food.

Chocoholic

Fri, May 01 2009, 11:36 am

It's OK when people stuff themselves, give themselves extra servings, etc, but the OP is not a free all-you-can-eat restaurant!!!!!

I don't think she means those people with big appetite, who talk, munch, talk, eat more and just have a great time.

I think she means that THIS family comes in like if they are going to a free all-you-can-eat restaurant and try to eat AS MUCH AS THEY POSSIBLE CAN. I think that's different.

If it bothers you, don't invite them over as much. And if they come, serve single pieces of fish, chicken, salad on individual plates and the cheaper fill up stuff like kugels out on the table.

amother

Fri, May 01 2009, 11:43 am

wow, zaq you must be a navi - these people happen to be from the former communist country with repressive regime Wink

- the only issue with your theory is that my dh and I (and my parents who came for a meal once together with these people and found their bahavior totally rude) are also from that country originally.

and Chocoholic - I tink you are the only person so far who totally gets what I am saying - so thank you Thumbs Up

I think everybody gave me a good idea to just serve individual portions when they come. The only thing is I am not sure if my dh will be happy with that, but we'll see.

I am happy that I posted here because I did get different perspectives. Thanks everybody!! Tongue Out

zaq

Fri, May 01 2009, 11:47 am

DefyGravity wrote:

My pet peeve is when people take a lot of food and then don't eat it. I make my food for people to enjoy, it's not nice to waste perfectly good food. Why can't people take a little bit, try it, and if they like it, eat more? An adult is usually capable of knowing how much he/she is capable of eating. It also annoys me when a guest will take a huge piece of food for their kid. They know their kid can't finish it!

.

Hey, defy, come here and sit by me and let's rant about this together! I hate, hate,HATE people who do that. And they're all frum people who have heard of bal tashchis, too! What are they thinking?

There used to be a perfectly ridiculous and I think equally fictitious "rule of etiquette" that said it was impolite to leave a clean plate, but that you must always leave a little bit of food behind. Maybe it was supposed to show, like the extra challah on the table at benching, that you'd eaten your fill and hadn't been deprived. Maybe it was supposed to imply that you had a dainty, aristocratic appetite and you didn't devour everything like a field hand. I don't know, but I read an almost-rant by a modern etiquette expert, saying that that was totally absurd and that wasting food was inexcusable.

Still I must know a lot of people who learned this asinine "rule," because the amount of food I have to throw out makes me see red every time. I work hard, both for the money to buy the food and to prepare the food, and if you're not going to eat it, it could feed someone else for another meal. I'm never insulted if people don't like my cooking, but I'm enraged by people who feel free to waste on my dime. Like you say, why not take a tiny bit and then take more only if you like it?

zaq

Fri, May 01 2009, 11:53 am

amother wrote:

wow, zaq you must be a navi - these people happen to be from the former communist country with repressive regime Wink

- the only issue with your theory is that my dh and I (and my parents who came for a meal once together with these people and found their bahavior totally rude) are also from that country originally.

Not a navi, just somewhat acquainted with that culture. The theory still holds, because some people adapt to a new country and its mores and some don't. Even in an epidemic, some people get sick and some don't.

Raisin

Fri, May 01 2009, 11:55 am

zaq wrote:

DefyGravity wrote:

I also hate hate hate this. especially when it is (expensive and hard to get) meat or chicken. one solution is to cut up meat or chicken into small portions (many people can't manage a whole 1/4) so people just take less and refill as needed. Also it looks like they tasted my food, decided it didn't taste good enough, and left it. my cooking is not that bad. LOL

I rememeber reading that in victorian times a polite girl would eat something before being invited out to tea or dinner, so she would not appear greedy. Rolling Eyes

(zaq, are you related to louche by any chance?)

SomebodyElse

Fri, May 01 2009, 12:01 pm

zaq wrote:

There used to be a perfectly ridiculous and I think equally fictitious "rule of etiquette" that said it was impolite to leave a clean plate, but that you must always leave a little bit of food behind. Maybe it was supposed to show, like the extra challah on the table at benching, that you'd eaten your fill and hadn't been deprived. Maybe it was supposed to imply that you had a dainty, aristocratic appetite and you didn't devour everything like a field hand. I don't know, but I read an almost-rant by a modern etiquette expert, saying that that was totally absurd and that wasting food was inexcusable.

Still I must know a lot of people who learned this asinine "rule," because the amount of food I have to throw out makes me see red every time. I work hard, both for the money to buy the food and to prepare the food, and if you're not going to eat it, it could feed someone else for another meal. I'm never insulted if people don't like my cooking, but I'm enraged by people who feel free to waste on my dime. Like you say, why not take a tiny bit and then take more only if you like it?

I know someone who does this, but he only leaves one little bite of food on his plate, so it's not so wasteful.

egam

Fri, May 01 2009, 1:02 pm

zaq wrote:

I'm not going to try to guess their ethnic background , but there are certain ethnic groups that don't ever contribute, bring thank-you gifts or anything. They tend to either come from countries with repressive governments and bad economies, so the mindset is "take whatever you can and as much of it as you can whenever you can," or from socialist-communist countries where all property in theory belonged to the collective, so it's really their own stuff they're taking. People can have this way of thinking even if they were born here but they absorbed this way of thinking from their parents. Or they think all Americans are rich and can afford all this, so why shouldn't they take advantage. If you couldn't afford all this you wouldn't be putting it out on the table.

And being from such a country I disagree with it. Whenever we are invited somewhere we always bring something (wine, cake, box of candy) and most of my friend from same country do the same. My parents did it in the old country and I teach my kids to do the same. On other hand I know plenty of many generations back Americans who never ever brought anything when I invited them. There are different people everywhere and I really don't like all this generalizations. Have you ever attended annual dinners or shmorgas boards before wedding? Have you seen how people pile up their plates, like there will be no food tomorrow? How many of them are from communist country? Not that many.

Just a thought. If you never plaited you food before and will start doing it all of a sudden, don't you think they could figure it out and be embarrassed or offended?

amother wrote:

but do you think it was normal for a wife to save food for the husband who came late?? It wasn;t like a piece of cake or something - but a plate FULL of fish, salads and dips.

I think it's OK, not that I've seen this often. When some of my guests come late I always ask them if they want to have something from the course they missed.

DefyGravity wrote:

Absolutely agree. I always fight about if with my big eyed DS. Hopefully he'll learn it someday.
And I also get upset if my guests don't eat my food, I see it as disapproving my cooking skills.

ganizzy

Sun, May 03 2009, 1:03 am

I usually put out alot of food on the table. mostly bec I want there to be too much and not too little and also bec I dont want people to feel bad taking how much they want.

that said dh once invited a group of russian bochurim who were in town for a bit. they were filling up their plates before kiddush!!! I had made a roast for y"t (which I generally never make bec of the $) which I thought would last for 3 meals. in my usual manner I put out alot, like 2/3 rds of the roast. well dh usually has the guests take first and by the time I sat down and was passed the bowl there was barely a piece for me let alone dh. it was good I had some more in the kitchen. needless to say I did not have much leftovers to put away from the table that meal.(and some of them wanted to come by motsai y"t for another "meal")

I didnt really mind I was just suprised. in any case I learnt for the next time if I would have people from an enviroment where they dont get much food or have massive appetites or just enjoy eating delicous home made food. I would serve pastas and potatoe salad and lots of simple inexpensive salads instead of s/t expensive.

and btw, I think they did bring s/t or it could have been s/t dh requested they bring in from russia.

Fox

Sun, May 03 2009, 2:29 am

SomebodyElse wrote:

Maybe you could mention to them that some of the families that host them aren't so well off financially, and also that it's common in the frum world to bring wine, dessert, or a gift to their hosts. And offer to advise them about which hechsherim different families accept if this could be an issue. (And make sure they know not to bring a non-food gift on shabbos...and none at all if there's no eruv.) Make it like *you* don't care, but this is just what's done in the community, and how some of the *other* families might really appreciate it. Maybe even suggest particular items for particular families if you know them better than these people do.

This is great advice. It seems like part of the problem is that the family is in that limbo between being "kiruvees" whose eccentricities are taken in stride and being full-fledged members of the community. They're still behaving like kiruvees, but the OP is ready for them to step up to the plate (no pun intended!) and observe the social niceties at least a bit.

My guess is that they probably don't cook much at home and consider the OP's meals a treat. There's probably no way to limit their consumption other than simply battening down the hatches when they come and putting out only what you're prepared to see eaten. However, your resentment may be a bit less if they contribute to the meal in some way.

I'm personally not a fan of plating food in the kitchen. Having been reared with a copy of "Miss Manners", I heartily subscribe to the notion that restaurant practices are not the final word on elegance. However, thanks to suggestions by imamothers, I learned a few tricks to cope with my own dear "fressing guest".

First, I make sure to give the serving plate to my husband first, and he's under strict orders to serve himself and control the passing -- no more leaving the serving dish in front of the fressing guest!

Next, I make an ample but appropriate amount of food, but I don't feel bad if people can't take 3rds or 4ths. It's not necessary to supply their caloric needs for the week!

Finally, I've learned to tell my fressing guest, "No." For example, he'll frequently have finished "1sts" before a dish has even circled the table, and he'll ask to have it passed. I jump in at this point and say, "Oh, certainly, but not everyone has had chicken yet. Let me be sure everyone has some, and I'll pass it back to you." I don't flat-out refuse, but I don't apologize for sticking up for other guests or even my own children. Like everyone, we often have to practice "FHB", but I no longer do so to accommodate someone's desire for 3rds and 4ths.

Good luck with your own "fressing guests" -- I guess I'm lucky mine is still single!

ValleyMom

Mon, May 04 2009, 8:37 pm

You don't saound like you are BECOMING resentful... you sound... RESENTFUL... Personally, I don't blame you. Does she help clear? Set? Serve? Frankly, I LOVE when people eat my food with relish. I am happiest when people enjoy my cooking.
Why mustthey come every single shabbos? Start calling her Wednesday before and ask her to do the vegetable and fruit shopping for you. OR... tell her to come an hour early and help with the prep work for a big Shabbos lunch. She can ste the table, cut a salad etc.
Whatever you choose to do--you should do with a full heart. Maybe you are just tired and need some down time on Shabbos?

bubby

Tue, May 05 2009, 1:53 pm

OP, I understand you perfectly. You are a decent, gracious, hospitable human being, a wife & mother, not a free food bank. May I suggest the next time you invite them or they invite themselves, say "How nice! Can you bring dessert? Enough for XX people. What are you going to bring so I can make my menu?" (meaning if she serves a fruit pie you won't make a sweet potato pie or whatever.

Don't apologize. Don't excuse yourself. Say it like you would ask her if it's raining. After a few times she'll get the message.

You can also make cheaper foods...a pareve cholent, for example. Plate your chicken. Hide extras in the fridge. Lots of kugels & cheap salads like carrot, pasta, or cole slaw. Tuna patties (KBD short on time has a fabulous recipe & it goes a long way) is fine for the fish course. Pinktichel stretches a roll of gefilte fish to make about 2 doz patties. Don't make avocados, they're more expensive & it doesn't go far. And definitely...lots of challah (esp. if you make it yourself), pickles etc.

You feel taken advantage of, right? Been there, done that. Rolling Eyes

familyfirst

Tue, May 05 2009, 10:59 pm

I didn't have the patience to read all the responses so I'm probably reiterating what others have already said.

At the risk of sounding like a parrot, here goes:

I fully understand the op. This family is taking full advantage of this hostess's gracious hospitality. They are probably fine people who just don't "get it". No, you do not have to keep having them over, and no, you do not have to feel guilty.

I, too, have many guests every week. Appreciation and gifts go a long way in giving me the energy to keep doing what I do. Most guests are gracious and generous, but I would feel just as resentful as you, OP, if I were hosting this family too often. I'd probably stop, actually.

As to the poster with the huge appetite: You sound like a smart woman. If you know that you will be coming hungry, it may be worth considering the idea that you eat something before you go. You do not want to come across as classless and as a glutton. Unless this doesn't bother you...Even a roll, (which requires no preparation). There's coming to a meal hungry, and then there's hungry. I trust your wisdom to understand what I mean.

amother

Wed, May 06 2009, 2:19 am

familyfirst wrote:

As to the poster with the huge appetite: You sound like a smart woman. If you know that you will be coming hungry, it may be worth considering the idea that you eat something before you go. You do not want to come across as classless and as a glutton. Unless this doesn't bother you...Even a roll, (which requires no preparation). There's coming to a meal hungry, and then there's hungry. I trust your wisdom to understand what I mean.

I hate bread. If I know that I cant eat my full at someone's house, I'd rather not go. As I said, I'd rather go to someone who isnt stingy with their food. And eating a roll before isnt so easy, especially if you're there for a whole shabbos and not just one meal. Though I have been bringing a ton of nosh with me to keep in my room when I go away for shabbos, in case I'm stuck with a family who mamash serves nothing. it happened to me once- I went somewhere, there was practically nothing served at the meal, and I left STARVING. Since then, I bring back up, like pretzels and fruit, etc.

Chana Miriam S

Wed, May 06 2009, 12:09 pm

invite her when you are pot lucking and ask her to bring something specific you know is fine with you. I am also not above being honest about telling someone they need to bring something, even if they don't ask. we have this in our community all the time and what happens is that bad guests stop getting invited, so if you want not to do that, being forthright, or at least inviting when you are 'potlucking' with others, might start getting the idea across. ESPECIALLY because in a pot luck, you can have the topic of discussion about what a relief it is to potluck sometimes with people who you know are down to earth etc, since it is so expensive to entertain....